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article imageOpinion: U.S. economics as bad as its geography - too many rationales, not enough reality

Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Paul Wallis (Wanderlaugh) in World | 22 comments | 703 views
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The theory of US capitalism is now facing its biggest test. Laissez faire has been the boast. The practical side of economics is finding good reasons not to laissez faire. The world economic map is changing, and not all roads lead to Wall Street.
The New York Times tries to explain an economic perspective which is becoming increasingly bizarre to the rest of the world:

Through this uniquely American lens, saving businesses from collapse was the sort of thing that happened on other shores, where sentimental commitments to social welfare trumped sharp-edged competition. Weak-kneed European and Asian leaders were too frightened to endure the animal instincts of a real market, the story went. So they intervened time and again, using government largess to lift inefficient firms to safety, sparing jobs and limiting pain but keeping their economies from reaching full potential.


Yeah, anyone can see what total economic failures Europe, Japan and China have become. Welfare has never been an issue in the US, just a disaster. This view has been more or less axiomatic in the US. Whole philosophies of free market capitalism have been developed. Friedman and Ayn Rand are the more notable icons of the Divine Right of Capital. (Even if neither of them said Screw Up Everything You Touch as part of their concepts.)

The bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac has started this ideological enema of the economic rationales

The mortgage giants were too big to be allowed to fail

Big indeed. Together, Fannie and Freddie own or guarantee nearly half of the nation’s $12 trillion worth of home mortgages. If they collapse, so may the whole system of finance for American housing, threatening a most unfortunate string of events: First, an already plummeting real estate market might crater. Then the banks that have sunk capital into American homes would slip deeper into trouble. And the virus might spread globally.

The central banks of China and Japan are on the hook for hundreds of billions of dollars worth of Fannie’s and Freddie’s bonds — debts they took on assuming that the two companies enjoyed the backing of the American government, argues Brad Setser, an economist at the Council on Foreign Relations.


As it happens, China and Japan are two of America’s major capital supports, in terms of investment. Those investments were supposed to be secure, and they weren’t.

Investing in the US economy has for decades been the traditional next step up the ladder for foreign capital. But investing in a shrinking, debt ridden, US economy, where even the original sacred cash cow, credit, is on the endangered species list, is something else.

Listening to people talking up the latest US fiscal and fiduciary megafiasco is also an acquired taste.

Other countries would find such huge losses embarrassing, not to say humiliating. So much sheer bad practice, (not to say outright negligence) in the case of the subprimes, and business ineptitude, in the case of reading the housing, credit, and financial malfeasances, is no recommendation to investors.

This is where the economic geography kicks in. The US has been the Roman Empire of global capital for decades. All roads really did lead to Wall Street. Now, Rome is in tatters, and the investors are looking for bargains, not advice, and definitely not imperial delusions. They have capital of their own, and favorable rates. They can buy the bits of America which are still working, and do it cheaply, relative to the wounded greenback.

Like most people, I thought the test results for American knowledge of geography were a joke. I couldn’t take the idea that half of America didn’t even know where Iraq was, seriously.

The US financial sector not knowing where the world is, however, is a lot more plausible.

The world apparently revolves around the Dow Jones index, and is flat. The world, in fact, is two dimensional, and so are the economics. To speak of the world being economically round is still heresy. Criticism of this view is unforgivable. Perish the thought that an economic Copernicus should ever refer to other investment markets. The world view is so insular it’s staggering in its primitiveness.

This picture of the rest of the world would have been familiar to Marco Polo, whose tales of Kublai Khan’s China were never believed in his lifetime. The Silk Road, the giant trade machinery of the time, was completely outside Western perception. Anything could be sold to the Europeans at the far end of the Silk Road, at any price. Silk itself was a mystery. Spices were a cause of war, they were so valuable.

Things haven’t changed much. The US economic horizon is established by rhetoric, not reality. The World’s Only Super Power has fallen for the same mistake the Romans made: Rome was so far from the realities of the rest of the world that the Romans were forever reacting to new situations. Rome actually went broke, twice, thanks partly to the spice trade.

The funny little Euro countries and backward giants like China, India and Russia, are now economic colonizers. Japan may be out of fashion, but economically still very strong. Its “failure” is relative to its own big boom of the 80s, not relative to the rest of the world.

With them come strange new economics, quite unlike US models. Sovereign wealth and lots of it, and quite different growth strategies, based on global realities, and associations which don’t include the US as a party.

The US, still working on models where cheap production, not efficiency, has been made dependent on these economies. If they don’t work, the whole US strategy of outsourcing its production falls to bits, and quickly.

The US interests in other countries would be the first to suffer if the US found itself disadvantaged by currency rates or costs of capital. The domestic economy is in very poor shape, with many of the 50 states having spent years trying to avoid the abyss.

Heirloom national problems are still on the US To Do List. Infrastructure, health, education, deficits, crime, and industries have been on the list since the early 90s, at the latest. The Rust Belt has been getting rustier, and economic change has been largely cosmetic, much gizmology, not much New Economy. Even the inefficient, expensive, traditional working week still lives on in Main Street USA, and God alone knows why.

Not knowing where the world is, let alone what it’s doing, may not be such a good idea. Other countries have moved on, and the US is lagging further behind, hanging on to its Reagan dolls and Thatcher pinups. That’s ancient history, everywhere else on Earth.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, instead of being seen as dangerous liabilities, huge financial toxic waste dumps, have become ideological issues in the US. The anti-bailout thinking goes as follows:

For one thing, this argument goes, taxpayers — who now confront plunging house prices, a drop on Wall Street and soaring costs for food and fuel — will ultimately pay the costs. To finance a bailout, the government can either pull more money from citizens directly, or the Fed can print more money — a step that encourages further inflation.

Using public money to spare Fannie and Freddie would increase the public debt, which now exceeds $9.4 trillion. The United States has been financing itself by leaning heavily on foreigners, particularly China, Japan and the oil-rich nations of the Persian Gulf. Were they to become worried that the United States might not be able to pay up, that would force the Treasury to offer higher rates of interest for its next tranche of bonds. And that would increase the interest rates that Americans must pay for houses and cars, putting a drag on economic growth.


You’ll notice that the idea that “This is our mess, we need to clean it up” isn’t on the map here. Nor is there any general admission, “We screwed up super ultra mega colossal”. Just more political rhetoric. Every try paying a bill with political rhetoric?

I also have yet to see any interest from anyone, particularly the financial media, in the possible reactions of America’s creditors.

The main commentary is that the world economy isn’t at all disconnected from the US, whether it likes it or not, so the world has to put up with whatever damn neuroses and series of hopeless, transparent excuses America's unemployable business geniuses produce.

It doesn’t, in case anyone was wondering. That's not the case. Huge amounts of money can get up and go anywhere else on Earth, at a click. Racking up trillion dollar losses is an American hobby, not necessarily anyone else’s.

There are still people on Earth who think they’re in business to make money, not lose it.

Just not in America, apparently. The mortgage securities alone should have had lynch mobs forming in every American board room, regulator, legislature, fund, and university. The reaction has been, to put it mildly, understated, if not downright hypocritical and utterly useless.

Here’s a rationale that needs shooting

In the global economy of the moment, the United States itself is too big to fail.
The logic for that assurance goes like this:

The American consumer has for decades served as the engine of world commerce, using borrowed cash to snap up the accoutrements of modern living — clothes and computers and cars now manufactured, in whole or in part, in factories from Asia to Latin America. Eliminate the American wherewithal to shop, and the pain would ripple out to multiple shores.


Drivel. The American domestic economy is huge, but it represents less than 5% of the potential global market. Disposable incomes in the US are going down, at breakneck speeds. Basing economic policy on spending sprees in US malls is like basing your military on astrology.

This is sheer wishful thinking. There’s not a damn thing to prevent foreign capital just going where it makes more money. That would create a huge influx of money into big economies which know what to do with that capital.

America was discovered by someone who thought he’d found India. The superpowers of that time are long gone. History changes the power balance, and it changes with capital as the main driving force. Money doesn't hang around waiting for an opportunity to be lost.

When Rome eventually fell, there was no Roman Empire left, except in name. Lots of statues commemorating people who actually did something, but no living people in that mold. The Goths walked into a defenceless relic.
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  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Chris V. (cgull)
    #1
    Bush said about the reason for the Economy problems is because Wall Street Got Drunk :). Instead of prosecuting those criminals, he makes jokes and they get away with it. They want less government interference, so they steal big time. McCain loves such policies.
  • John H Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  John H
    #2
    As an American, and by that I mean someone who holds the Constitution to be the definition of America, these last seven years have been frightening. Many people who attain power seek to gather more and more of it. History has bared this out. But without the support of others it is not possible to gain ultimate authority. That is what is so troubling about what has been happening. Bush is just a dim delusional simpleton. I don't say that as a cutting remark - it's just the truth.

    Why has there been such support for his oligarchy? Why has there been so little resistance to this systematic dismantling of America? That is where the real tragedy lies. It proves that this American experiment can be subjugated to the will of a few.

    So what am I supposed to do? Vote? Write an angry letter to my congressman? Protest on the street? I get the feeling that the powers-that-be are simply entertained by these toothless attempts to have my voice count.

    I don't believe there are very many people out there who know just how dark the future is for our country. I'm afraid my kids will never live in an America that lives up to its potential.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Paul Wallis (Wanderlaugh)
    #3
    @ John H
    As an American, and by that I mean someone who holds the Constitution to be the definition of America, these last seven years have been frightening. Many people who attain power seek to gather more and more of it. History has bared this out. But without the support of others it is not possible to gain ultimate authority. That is what is so troubling about what has been happening. Bush is just a dim delusional simpleton. I don't say that as a cutting remark - it's just the truth.

    Why has there been such support for his oligarchy? Why has there been so little resistance to this systematic dismantling of America? That is where the real tragedy lies. It proves that this American experiment can be subjugated to the will of a few.

    So what am I supposed to do? Vote? Write an angry letter to my congressman? Protest on the street? I get the feeling that the powers-that-be are simply entertained by these toothless attempts to have my voice count.

    I don't believe there are very many people out there who know just how dark the future is for our country. I'm afraid my kids will never live in an America that lives up to its potential.


    I'm sorry to say I can't disagree with that. The only "explanation", such as it is, that I can see is that they really are sufficiently stupid as to be unable to see what they're doing. That's almost unbelievable, but here it is, plainly visible to just about everyone else. This has never had a thing to do with politics, just greed. The politicians are apparently naive enough to think everyone must be on one side or another, not working for themselves. Or corrupt enough to go along with it.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Paul Wallis (Wanderlaugh)
    #4
    @ Chris V. (cgull)
    Bush said about the reason for the Economy problems is because Wall Street Got Drunk :). Instead of prosecuting those criminals, he makes jokes and they get away with it. They want less government interference, so they steal big time. McCain loves such policies.


    Yep, and while they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, this is happening. God help America.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Chris V. (cgull)
    #5
    @ John H
    As an American, and by that I mean someone who holds the Constitution to be the definition of America, these last seven years have been frightening. Many people who attain power seek to gather more and more of it. History has bared this out. But without the support of others it is not possible to gain ultimate authority. That is what is so troubling about what has been happening. Bush is just a dim delusional simpleton. I don't say that as a cutting remark - it's just the truth.

    Why has there been such support for his oligarchy? Why has there been so little resistance to this systematic dismantling of America? That is where the real tragedy lies. It proves that this American experiment can be subjugated to the will of a few.

    So what am I supposed to do? Vote? Write an angry letter to my congressman? Protest on the street? I get the feeling that the powers-that-be are simply entertained by these toothless attempts to have my voice count.

    I don't believe there are very many people out there who know just how dark the future is for our country. I'm afraid my kids will never live in an America that lives up to its potential.
    Wow, great comment, that is an article by itself. It is right on the money. That is the reason, the Neocons and Bush's people want McCain to continue and escape the punishment and keep doing more of this in the future.

    @ Paul Wallis (Wanderlaugh)
    Yep, and while they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, this is happening. God help America.
    Paul, before I used to hear plenty of "God Bless America" and now I hear plenty of "God help America".
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #6
    @ John H
    As an American, and by that I mean someone who holds the Constitution to be the definition of America, these last seven years have been frightening. Many people who attain power seek to gather more and more of it. History has bared this out. But without the support of others it is not possible to gain ultimate authority. That is what is so troubling about what has been happening. Bush is just a dim delusional simpleton. I don't say that as a cutting remark - it's just the truth.

    Why has there been such support for his oligarchy? Why has there been so little resistance to this systematic dismantling of America? That is where the real tragedy lies. It proves that this American experiment can be subjugated to the will of a few.

    So what am I supposed to do? Vote? Write an angry letter to my congressman? Protest on the street? I get the feeling that the powers-that-be are simply entertained by these toothless attempts to have my voice count.

    I don't believe there are very many people out there who know just how dark the future is for our country. I'm afraid my kids will never live in an America that lives up to its potential.


    Welcome to DJ John.

    I fear for my grand-kids and the two grand-babies that will be born in the next seven months. I shudder to think what kind of a world they are going to live in.
  • Tango Hotel Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Tango Hotel
    #7
    All of you need to go back and read the article again. It was American consumers who bought everthing on credit without sufficient ability to repay their debts that caused this problem, not Congress or the President. Bush did not sign any of your personal loan agreements. It was greedy mortgage lenders and a banking industry that gave out loans to folks without the income to repay the them that caused our problems. It was credit card companies that gave credit to 18 year old kids without jobs that caused this financial crisis. It was consumers that wanted to buy cheaper and cheaper goods and were not concerned about where they were made that caused this problem. And it will be American consumers who take responsibility for there own financial crisis and pay off their huge debts, start spending cash instead of plastic, and therefore put this country on a sound financial footing that will fix this problem. I read an interesting point a few weeks ago. If we were still paying for everything with silver dollars and currency backed up by real value (silver and gold), gas would still only cost a quarter a gallon and a new house would cost around $30,000. And how many years ago did that process begin. Quit whining and blaming others and get off your butts and fix this problem yourselves.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Susan Duclos
    #8
    @ Tango Hotel
    All of you need to go back and read the article again. It was American consumers who bought everthing on credit without sufficient ability to repay their debts that caused this problem, not Congress or the President. Bush did not sign any of your personal loan agreements. It was greedy mortgage lenders and a banking industry that gave out loans to folks without the income to repay the them that caused our problems. It was credit card companies that gave credit to 18 year old kids without jobs that caused this financial crisis. It was consumers that wanted to buy cheaper and cheaper goods and were not concerned about where they were made that caused this problem. And it will be American consumers who take responsibility for there own financial crisis and pay off their huge debts, start spending cash instead of plastic, and therefore put this country on a sound financial footing that will fix this problem. I read an interesting point a few weeks ago. If we were still paying for everything with silver dollars and currency backed up by real value (silver and gold), gas would still only cost a quarter a gallon and a new house would cost around $30,000. And how many years ago did that process begin. Quit whining and blaming others and get off your butts and fix this problem yourselves.


    Welcome to DJ and great points, all of them.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Sykos Masters
    #9
    @ Tango Hotel
    All of you need to go back and read the article again. It was American consumers who bought everthing on credit without sufficient ability to repay their debts that caused this problem, not Congress or the President. Bush did not sign any of your personal loan agreements. It was greedy mortgage lenders and a banking industry that gave out loans to folks without the income to repay the them that caused our problems. It was credit card companies that gave credit to 18 year old kids without jobs that caused this financial crisis. It was consumers that wanted to buy cheaper and cheaper goods and were not concerned about where they were made that caused this problem. And it will be American consumers who take responsibility for there own financial crisis and pay off their huge debts, start spending cash instead of plastic, and therefore put this country on a sound financial footing that will fix this problem. I read an interesting point a few weeks ago. If we were still paying for everything with silver dollars and currency backed up by real value (silver and gold), gas would still only cost a quarter a gallon and a new house would cost around $30,000. And how many years ago did that process begin. Quit whining and blaming others and get off your butts and fix this problem yourselves.


    What a sparkling example of black and white (the colours) thinking. The developed world has been living on credit for decades. Although the consumer does have some responsibility, i.e. shouldering debt that he / she could not handle, to lay all of the current economic woes at the feet of the consumer shows a lack of seeing the greater picture.

    If your rationale was applied universally, there would be less than 5% of the businesses that now exist in the U.S.. Wall Street, Main Street, farmers, your GP, your utilities companies, every business sector operates (to a large extent) on credit. I notice that you haven't said a word about Bear Stearns, Fannie and Freddie, or any of the other corporate bail outs that have taken place.

    Kudos for you if you're able to own your own home outright, pay all your bills with cash, have no auto or students loans and can live without credit. The fact remains that the average consumer on Main Street was duped into accepting more debt because of snake-oil salesmen in the financial sector. If you're going to start slinging stones, you had best get a much larger slingshot.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Chris V. (cgull)
    #10
    @ Sykos Masters
    What a sparkling example of black and white (the colours) thinking. The developed world has been living on credit for decades. Although the consumer does have some responsibility, i.e. shouldering debt that he / she could not handle, to lay all of the current economic woes at the feet of the consumer shows a lack of seeing the greater picture.

    If your rationale was applied universally, there would be less than 5% of the businesses that now exist in the U.S.. Wall Street, Main Street, farmers, your GP, your utilities companies, every business sector operates (to a large extent) on credit. I notice that you haven't said a word about Bear Stearns, Fannie and Freddie, or any of the other corporate bail outs that have taken place.

    Kudos for you if you're able to own your own home outright, pay all your bills with cash, have no auto or students loans and can live without credit. The fact remains that the average consumer on Main Street was duped into accepting more debt because of snake-oil salesmen in the financial sector. If you're going to start slinging stones, you had best get a much larger slingshot.
    Exactly, many deposited their funds in the banks and few of them closed. This is the same excuse they use over and over, as if the businesses are not the problems. Now Wachovia is facing serious problems, they lost $8.6 billion
  • John H Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  John H
    #11
    Yes. Whenever there is trouble the guy at the bottom is always blamed. If you want to buy a house you have two options.

    1.Get a loan from a lending institution.

    2.Ask your rich uncle for the cash.

    The fact is that all lending institutions operate in pretty much the same way. So why would so many banks offer loans to people who couldn't afford to make the payments and had no money to put down to begin with? They knew it was just a matter of time before the borrower would foreclose. That would then allow the bank to take any capital the borrower had put into the house and then the lender puts it back on the market were presumably the house's value has increased. However, this time there were so many banks doing the same thing that the value didn't increase it decreased. It was simply greed. Now you and I, the tax payers are going to bail out the very people who preyed on us and who benefited from their unethical behavior. Isn't it interesting that regulations were already in place to keep banks from doing what they have done yet no one is talking about prosecution? That's because too many politicians hands are dirty. To look at the borrower as if he did not fulfill their obligation is to assume that the lender was acting ethically and responsibly.

    I'll give you a personal experience. I went back to school at 38. Biggest mistake of my life, but that aside. My school loans changed hands four times before I was ever out of school or obligated to pay them back. Each time it changed hands another 15% was tacked on. I was never involved in this process or notified it was going to happen. Once my loans increased by 60% the debt began to wane out of control. It simply became unmanageable.

    Tango said: "It was consumers that wanted to buy cheaper and cheaper goods and were not concerned about where they were made that caused this problem. And it will be American consumers who take responsibility for there own financial crisis and pay off their huge debts, start spending cash instead of plastic, and therefore put this country on a sound financial footing that will fix this problem."

    People buy the cheapest because that's all they can afford and those are usually foreign goods because American corporations sold their countrymen down the river so that the very wealthy could profit. I haven't used 'plastic' in two years and believe me it is rough going, something the rest of the country is going to experience very soon. The banking system without any doubt is predatory by nature.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #12
    @ John H
    People buy the cheapest because that's all they can afford and those are usually foreign goods because American corporations sold their countrymen down the river so that the very wealthy could profit. I haven't used 'plastic' in two years and believe me it is rough going, something the rest of the country is going to experience very soon. The banking system without any doubt is predatory by nature.


    How true. We have been sold down the river by the wealthy and their cohorts and Bush thinks it is funny. How sick.
  • avatar Posted Jul 23, 2008 by  Sykos Masters
    #13
    As an other data point in all of this ...

    Another thing that Tango likely won't address is the whole change in the financial line that's been sold to the "developed" west. Not too terribly long ago, it was considered wise to save – rainy days, retirement and all that. But you see, there's two problems with allowing the average bean to save on their own: 1) it takes control out of the hands of all the "advisers" .... "401k plans and mutual finds are so much better than anything else you know ...", and 2) saving money takes it out of the economy.

    You see if you're money isn't in any of those fancy new "financial instruments" that Wall Street came up with, they're not available for corporate America to use. If you're saving money the traditional way, and not spending on anything but the basics, then the "economy" suffers. You're screwed if you do ... and worse if you don't.
  • avatar Posted Jul 24, 2008 by  Chris V. (cgull)
    #14
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    How true. We have been sold down the river by the wealthy and their cohorts and Bush thinks it is funny. How sick.
    I agree. The same who say they are fighting for American people in Iraq, say this to dismiss the American people with pointless statements like that. They are not protecting us, they are protecting the cronies. How can they be blind to the truth.

    @ Sykos Masters
    As an other data point in all of this ...

    Another thing that Tango likely won't address is the whole change in the financial line that's been sold to the "developed" west. Not too terribly long ago, it was considered wise to save – rainy days, retirement and all that. But you see, there's two problems with allowing the average bean to save on their own: 1) it takes control out of the hands of all the "advisers" .... "401k plans and mutual finds are so much better than anything else you know ...", and 2) saving money takes it out of the economy.

    You see if you're money isn't in any of those fancy new "financial instruments" that Wall Street came up with, they're not available for corporate America to use. If you're saving money the traditional way, and not spending on anything but the basics, then the "economy" suffers. You're screwed if you do ... and worse if you don't.
    Well said Sykos, another thing is banks are giving very low interest rates (3.0% or less, BOA used to give less than 0.5% with conditions).
  • avatar Posted Jul 24, 2008 by  Sykos Masters
    #15
    @ Chris V. (cgull)
    Well said Sykos, another thing is banks are giving very low interest rates (3.0% or less, BOA used to give less than 0.5% with conditions).


    Very true. People tend to think only about interest when they're getting a new loan, as they want to know that they're not paying too much for borrowing the money. Before all these new shell games, banks made money from two things: 1) the difference between interest received and interest paid out (loans v. savings) and svc charges.

    These days, the major financial market profits are based on "possible future earnings" ... which is basically the same as reading chicken guts to see how good the rain will be this season.
  • Tango Hotel Posted Jul 28, 2008 by  Tango Hotel
    #16
    All the points made in answer to my comment are great, however, I simply said and feel that I am responsible for my financial well being, not some bank, mortgage company, credit card company, or politician. All of these may influence my decisions but I make my own choices. My parents paid cash for their cars, I don't although I could if I drove my cars for 10 years and didn't buy one with all the bells and whistles. My parents had a 15 year mortgage on a house they could afford, I have followed their example and bought a house for $50,00 less than what I "qualified" for and I have a 15 year mortgage.

    It's easy for folks to blame others for their problems but people want things they don't need, spend money they don't have, and then wonder why things go bad when they can't pay their bills. Granted, our capitalist system runs on consumers purchasing more and more goods, just the customers don't all have to be Americans. If only we still manufactured goods to sell to others, but we've priced ourselves out of those markets with our inflationary economic process. The main problem that I see is that we've created a standard of living in this country that is extremely hard to maintain and when people fall off that horse it hurts like hell.
  • avatar Posted Jul 28, 2008 by  Sykos Masters
    #17
    @Tango.

    Personal responsibility was never questioned in this article, imo. I venture to guess that everyone here agrees that there is no replacement for managing one's own finances and accepting responsibility for those decisions that were made after full disclosure by any involved professionals. What this article did point out is the short-falls in how the government has managed to throw the U.S. into it's worst 2 term deficit and recession in recent memory. You also say ...

    If only we still manufactured goods to sell to others, but we've priced ourselves out of those markets with our inflationary economic process.


    Import / export hasn't been that simple in decades. With the rush to "free trade" that Bush & Co. have been pushing, member countries agree not to have tariff and other obstructions. While sound in principle, the tendency is for Corporate America to seek the country with the lowest wage structure ..... currently Mexico, S. America and some Asian countries; those jobs have left the U.S. and Canada. Add to that the continual drop in real income in both the U.S. and Canada, a need to raise prices in order to make up for lost tariffs and surcharges, and subsequent domestic wage increases (lower than inflation), and you find yourself in a situation where you must now import more than you export. The U.S. has operated a trade deficit for ages.

    Consumer (over)spending and "[creating] a standard of living in this country that is extremely hard to maintain" is but a small part of the problem.
  • John H Posted Jul 29, 2008 by  John H
    #18
    Tango. I agree with most of what you said and I understand your initial point.

    I think we as Americans have lost a lot of our freedom and liberty. Once one company get cheap labor from over seas their competitors have to follow or they cannot compete. Its a horrible snowball effect.

    The average person likewise has to participate in the consumer driven society or suffer the consequences.

    There is no free market. The Saudis control the supply of oil. Their supply is not based on demand but is based on how much they can benefit from controlling the supply. De Beers controls the amount of diamonds that will be leaked into circulation so they can keep the value high. They have huge stock piles of them on hand at any given time. The Federal Reserve prints money whenever they need it, right out of thin air which completely disrupts the concept of a supply and demand economy.

    The Republicans, in truth, are not a political organization. They are a monetary organization. They want less government intervention so that the government, and subsequently the voice of the American people, won't have a say it what goes on. What they really desire is a return to the feudal system where a small group of the very wealthy control everything and the rest of us take what we are given.

    When this upcoming collapse occurs the wealthy will be in a perfect position to do what I have just mentioned and there won't be a thing that any of us can do about it.
  • Tango Hotel Posted Jul 30, 2008 by  Tango Hotel
    #19
    The Republicans, in truth, are not a political organization. They are a monetary organization. They want less government intervention so that the government, and subsequently the voice of the American people, won't have a say it what goes on. What they really desire is a return to the feudal system where a small group of the very wealthy control everything and the rest of us take what we are given


    Interesting point, and perhaps with some truth to it, however, I believe the Republicans recognize that "economics" not politics, or military might, or religion, or even social will, is the flavor of the day. That is what drives our society and much of the world. What Republicans have learned is how to work together for the most part. Democrats are still a loose coalition of liberal organizations, each with its own agenda, and sometimes in conflict with each other. When they can figure out how to stop spending 99% of their time and effort looking for someone to blame about the state of the world and concentrate that time and energy on improving things, then there will be progress. Then liberals might find some common ground with conservatives and we can correct some of the mistakes of the past.

    And by the way
    The Saudis control the supply of oil.
    is not quite correct. The U.S. imports more oil from Canada than anywhere else, Saudi Arabia is sometimes our 2nd largest supplier, although Mexico was in 2007. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html.
  • John H Posted Jul 30, 2008 by  John H
    #20
    Good points.

    The Democrats used to be a civil rights party. Now that civil rights aren't at the fore front like they used to be, the Democrats don't know who they are anymore.

    The Republicans did a great job with PR over the last couple of decades. They realized they needed the blue collar vote so they promised to protect them from the 'commies' and the 'blacks'. They wrapped it all up in an American flag and got the lower and middle class to vote against their own economic interest. Now they say they want to protect them from the 'terrorist' and 'gays' and the old strategy still works.

    The truth is that the Republicans don't care about the lower and middle class they just need the clout to get their agenda pushed through. Democrats aren't any better. Whats worse, a shyster or a coward?

    If Republicans were true fiscal conservatives and Democrats truly wanted to defend the public welfare then they both could come together and effect some real change. But I think the wounds created over the last few decades are to deep to heal.

    I would just like to see a self sufficient America that looks after it's citizens first.
  • Tango Hotel Posted Jul 31, 2008 by  Tango Hotel
    #21
    I would just like to see a self sufficient America that looks after it's citizens first.


    AMEN
  • avatar Posted Jul 31, 2008 by  Paul Wallis (Wanderlaugh)
    #22
    @ Tango Hotel
    AMEN


    There used to be one, you know. What happened to it, and can you get it back in working order, soon?

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