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The AFA initiated a boycott of McDonald's because the fast-food giant joined the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce, placing an executive on the group's board of directors. Today they accuse McDonald's of Equating Defense of Marriage with 'Hate'
The American Family Association ( AFA) is a group that opposes same-sex marriages and it was reported in the Washington Post on July 4, 2008, that the AFA had launched a boycott against McDonald's saying they have refused to "stay neutral in the cultural war over homosexuality."
The AFA asked McDonald's to remove themselves from the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce (NGLCC), with the association's president, Tim Wildmon, stating, "We're saying that there are people who support AFA who don't appreciate their dollars from the hamburgers they bought being put into an organization that's going to fight against the values they believe in."
McDonald's declined to do so with their U.S. Spokesperson, Bill Whitman, saying, "Hatred has no place in our culture. That includes McDonald's, and we stand by and support our people to live and work in a society free of discrimination and harassment."
McDonald's has also made a $20,000 contribution to NGLCC.
The AFA has even gone as far as to set up a website online which includes information, petition and activist planning.
That website, called Boycott McDonald's states on it's main page:
What the boycott of McDonald's IS NOT about
* This boycott is not about hiring homosexuals.
* It is not about homosexuals eating at McDonald's.
* It is not about how homosexual employees are treated.
What the boycott of McDonald's IS about
It is about McDonald's, as a corporation, refusing to remain neutral in the culture wars. McDonald's has chosen not to remain neutral but to give the full weight of their corporation to promoting the homosexual agenda, including homosexual marriage.
That statement made by Whitman to the Washington Post has caused other conservative and religious groups to join the boycott against McDonald's, accusing them of equating the defense of traditional marriage with hatred.
Four pro-family conservative groups held a news conference in front of McDonald’s corporate headquarters in Oak Brook, Illinois, where Matt Barber who is the director of cultural affairs of one of those four groups, Liberty Counsel, said, "I can’t believe that McDonald’s would be so short-sighted that it would allow this spokesperson to go off half-cocked and insult tens of millions of Americans who support the traditional definition of marriage."
The other two groups, besides the AFA and Liberty Counsel, that have joined the boycott are , Americans for Truth About Homosexuality and the Illinois Family Institute.
In an interview with Cybercast News Service (CNS), the president of Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, Peter LaBarbera, asserts that the Christians that are opposed to same-sex marriages do so because of moral and practical reasons and not because they "hate" homosexuals.
LaBarbera goes on to tell CNS that "Morality is not hate. Judeo-Christian beliefs are not bigotry. This is a canard that the homosexual activists have been pushing for years – that if you oppose homosexual activism you are somehow a ‘bigot,’ or a ‘hater’ or a ‘homophobe.’ It’s a scandal to see a spokesman for a seemingly pro-family organization like McDonald’s echoing the gay line like this.”
McDonald’s did not respond directly to questions asking if Whitman’s comments were in context and if an insult was intended, but the company did provide Cybercast News Service with a statement, attributed to Pat Harris, chief diversity officer for McDonald’s Corporation.
“At McDonald’s, we respect and value everyone,” Harris said. “Diversity and inclusion are business imperatives and integral parts of our culture. We have a long and proud history of leadership in these areas and continually strive to maintain a work environment where everyone feels valued and accepted.
“We recognize and appreciate the contributions diverse groups and individuals bring to our society, including McDonald’s. We stand behind and support everyone’s right to live and work in a society free from discrimination and harassment,” Harris added.
The NGLCC did not provide a spokesperson to CNS either for individual questions, but they did provide a prepared statement which said:
“The main focus of the NGLCC is to connect major corporations with LGBT-owned (Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgendered) businesses that want to ensure their diverse supply chain looks like the customer and employee bases they have, or the customer and employee bases they are trying to attract."
A company's decision to become a corporate partner doesn't reflect its entrance into the so-called ‘culture wars,’ as the conservative AFA suggested, but rather its commitment to diversity in the workplace and in its supplier relationships.”
In response to that statement, LaBarbera notes "McDonald’s paid $20,000 so that one of its top executives could have a seat on the (NGLCC’s) board of directors. How is that not an endorsement of the homosexual agenda?"
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Oh dear.
This is so wrong, on so many levels. I don't understand the need to still wear a mullet, but do you see me protesting at NASCAR races?
There are so many more important things in life than worrying about which chamber of commerce a company decides to belong to. The "culture wars" is in interesting twist of the argument though.
As an aside, what the h311 would LaBarbera know about homosexuality? He certainly has a lot to say about his views of it, but unless he actually is gay, it becomes opinion rather than knowledge.
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@ Sykos Masters
Oh dear.
This is so wrong, on so many levels. I don't understand the need to still wear a mullet, but do you see me protesting at NASCAR races?
There are so many more important things in life than worrying about which chamber of commerce a company decides to belong to. The "culture wars" is in interesting twist of the argument though.
As an aside, what the h311 would LaBarbera know about homosexuality? He certainly has a lot to say about his views of it, but unless he actually is gay, it becomes opinion rather than knowledge.
Well said. I think the interesting part of it though is how the McDonald's spokesmen using the word hate set of a firestorm that caused the issue to become larger than it started as.
The original boycott was weird, but now it has turned into something bigger by the use of the word hate. He should have phrased it better and then this would have flown right by unnoticed. -
@Sue
Very true ... using "hate" in the current media-storm was a very bad move – I suspect it was intended to be.
I don't have a lot of respect for so-called "gay activists" either. They've done very little to represent my views on current affairs.
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I guess hate groups hate to have their hate pointed out.
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@ Sykos Masters
@Sue
Very true ... using "hate" in the current media-storm was a very bad move – I suspect it was intended to be.
I don't have a lot of respect for so-called "gay activists" either. They've done very little to represent my views on current affairs.
I just think people should live and let everyone else live and not try to push their morals on other people by dissing homosexuals and on the flip side of that coin, I don't want anybody, heterosexual or homosexual, flaunting their sexuality in my face.
Mentioning whether you are homosexual or heterosexual in a conversation is fine and dandy but shoving ones sex life into others faces to me is wrong.
I am old school, sex, no matter who is having it together, should be private. -
@ MikeNYC
I guess hate groups hate to have their hate pointed out.
Why do you automatically assume that religious groups are "hate groups", they have a right to their opinion and as the AFA has stated very clearly on their site:
Does AFA Hate Homosexuals?
Absolutely Not! The same Holy Bible that calls us to reject sin, calls us to love our neighbor. It is that love that motivates us to expose the misrepresentation of the radical homosexual agenda and stop its spread though our culture. AFA has sponsored several events reaching out to homosexuals and letting them know there is love and healing at the Cross of Christ.
So, while I do not agree with them about trying to push their values on other people, to claim they "hate" is just as ignorant. -
Sue D., I respectfully must say that "hate groups" is not too far off from the perspective of someone who is gay. Maybe a better word than hate might be bigotry or prejudice, but in any case it ain't pretty.
In my life I've felt attacked in one way or another by Christians so many times I could never count them if I tried. Insulted, demeaned, denied basic things that others take for granted, even physically assaulted. Then adding insult to injury Christians toss out things like the old "I love the sinner, hate the sin" line. Do you have any idea how that feels when you're gay, never chose it (or ever would with this kind of response) and are merely being exactly who you are as God intended? To have people treat you like that, all the while dripping with pious, self-righteous arrogance claiming to know what God thinks of me? Let me tell ya, it feels an awful lot like hate. Whether it's intended that way or not.
I'm not saying all Chrstians are like that. I know many who would never treat me or anyone else like that. But in my 40 years (23 living openly as who I am) those nice ones are, unfortunately, a Christian minority.
This McDonald's flap is actually a great example. It is but one of many places McDonald's diverts money and attention, as they say to foster diversity, to embarce all. Good for them. Then to have the AFA boycott them over it?? Very mean-spirited indeed.
Also, when it comes to flaunting, please think twice about what you say. Heterosexuality is flaunted all over the place all the time. As you say, you don't like that either. But sometimes I've heard people say that and in the next breath get all bent out of shape seeing a simple kiss or hand-holding between two people of the same gender. To be fair, you will probably never see flaunting by same-gender couples to a degree anywhere near what I've been subjected to from opposite-gender couples my whole life.
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Donnie welcome to DJ and thank you for your very well written and thought out response. I can see where you are coming from and I do not care to have people try to force their values on me either, although I probably have never experienced it to the degree that you have, granted.
I believe many religious groups do go over the top but I do not think they do it out of mean spiritedness, so much as they somehow feel it is their moral obligation to "change" someone and many do not understand that some things are not able to be changed because they are not choices.
I am not religious and although I disagree often with those over the top religious people, I do not see them as bigoted or hatefilled, I see them as misguided.
Hate filled to me are groups like the Westboro Baptist disgraces, that created sites like IHatefags and protest at funerals.
To me that is a far cry from a religious man or women that tries to instill their values into others.
I try to separate the groups as shown in the example above because I believe those are truly the people that the words "hate" and "bigoted" belong to.
Again, welcome to the site and I hope you enjoy it here.
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Posted Jul 18, 2008 by Tom |
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#9
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I find it very difficult, quite frankly, to make the subtle distinction between hate and misguidance when it comes to the AFA, Liberty Council, and Americans for Truth About Homosexuality. These are groups whose sole business is to denigrate gay people, whose (apparently) straight leaders are so threatened by me and me and "my kind" that they've made a career of attacking us. Having co-opted the "family" moniker, they would have you believe that I have no right to a family, no right to be loved by anyone I can love back, and no right to question their credentials as "good Christians."
I do question those credentials.
Unfortunately, I too am a bigot. Organizations such as these have trained me to believe that a Christian is someone who has empowered himself to mind your business for you, and I spend way too much energy trying to be fair and open-minded to them. Very troubling, but true.
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@ Susan Duclos
Donnie welcome to DJ and thank you for your very well written and thought out response. I can see where you are coming from and I do not care to have people try to force their values on me either, although I probably have never experienced it to the degree that you have, granted.
I believe many religious groups do go over the top but I do not think they do it out of mean spiritedness, so much as they somehow feel it is their moral obligation to "change" someone and many do not understand that some things are not able to be changed because they are not choices.
I am not religious and although I disagree often with those over the top religious people, I do not see them as bigoted or hatefilled, I see them as misguided.
Hate filled to me are groups like the Westboro Baptist disgraces, that created sites like IHatefags and protest at funerals.
To me that is a far cry from a religious man or women that tries to instill their values into others.
I try to separate the groups as shown in the example above because I believe those are truly the people that the words "hate" and "bigoted" belong to.
Again, welcome to the site and I hope you enjoy it here.
I agree with you Susan. There will forever be people who resent being told the truth because it makes them uncomfortable, regardless of how gentle or respectful that truth is presented. Instead of dealing with their own discomfort (conviction) they instead reject the truth and attack the bearer of that truth. Who the hat fits let them wear it. -
@ Sheba
I agree with you Susan. There will forever be people who resent being told the truth because it makes them uncomfortable, regardless of how gentle or respectful that truth is presented. Instead of dealing with their own discomfort (conviction) they instead reject the truth and attack the bearer of that truth. Who the hat fits let them wear it.
Thanks Sheba and catch everyone tomorrow! -
@ Sheba
I agree with you Susan. There will forever be people who resent being told the truth because it makes them uncomfortable, regardless of how gentle or respectful that truth is presented. Instead of dealing with their own discomfort (conviction) they instead reject the truth and attack the bearer of that truth. Who the hat fits let them wear it.
First I want to state I am not trying to start a flame war..........but...
Who is to say one person's truth is another person's truth. What one person thinks is being respectful may be a total disregard of another person's beliefs or lack of belief.
When a person states repeatedly and yet with respect for another person that they do not follow that spiritual pathway and are subject to a fevered 'sales' pitch respect has left the window.
The truth is many of today's mainstream Christian sects teach that homosexuality is a sin. They quote Biblical scriptures taken out of context and use it as a sword of righteousness without often a true understanding of the history of the text.
I am not saying all Christians are like this. I am saying that in my experience though a large percentage are. It's understandable when you are on a certain path to want to 'save' the world. That said when you talk down to those who do not believe in the same world view as you do it tends to make others have a sour taste.
Stepping off of my soapbox. -
Of course it is hate. The AFA and other abominations in the Name of God are so corrupt and hateful that they don't even understand the concept of truth.
They are little different then those who, in the name of their God, gave us 9/11. And these groups are filled with people who are still opposed to equality for blacks, believe Jews are the Christ killers, and of course now it is the gay's turn to suffer.
We should all be eating at McDonalds. What the whole issue is really about it breaking down the lies of these groups. And once people begin to see through their hate and hypocrisy for what is is, their whole house of cards of superstition and lies will come tumbling down.
And then their corrupt power and their money will be gone, and that is really what they fear.
Make it happen. Fo the true meaning of God, and Jesus life on Earth amongst his people, or whatever your religious beliefs may be.
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@Donnie
I completely sympathize with what you shared. Btw - Welcome to DJ :) My childhood congregation was jam-packed with "love the sinner" people. Quite frankly, they can cram their "love" somewhere else. Mind you, those experiences have all helped me to discover a spiritual path different from when I was a child / teen.
@Sue
I understand the distinction that you make ... and agree on most points. However, what gives anyone the right to "instill [their] values" in anyone else. Unless that person is one of my parents, I consider it an intrusion into my beliefs.
@Tom
I'm begging you not to visit the site purporting to have the "truth about homosexuality". My BP went into the red-zone for a good half hour after I visited it. Imo, the only "truth" (although not stated) on that sight is that the creator is a product of generations of brother-sister breeding.
@KJ
EXACTLY!!!
@Steve
I appreciate your sentiments, but I think that allowing groups like this to get any serious reponse simply feeds into their self-deluded sense of importance in the grand scheme of things.
I think that's everyone covered =D
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Great post and awesome comments! My thoughts are simple...as Sue said: live and let live.
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"Does AFA Hate Homosexuals?
Absolutely Not! The same Holy Bible that calls us to reject sin, calls us to love our neighbor. It is that love that motivates us to expose the misrepresentation of the radical homosexual agenda and stop its spread though our culture. AFA has sponsored several events reaching out to homosexuals and letting them know there is love and healing at the Cross of Christ."
Really? Let me tell you how AFA and Focus on the Family and others like them show their "Christian loveʻ toward gay people. They are vigorously working to outlaw all legal protections for homosexuals. They are against gay marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships. They want to re-criminalize homosexuality. They are working against hate-crimes legislation that includes sexual orientation. They are making every effort to insure that ENDA, the Employment Non-discrimination Act, does not pass. This "Christian loveʻ results in homophobia, gay-bashing, and discriminatory legislation against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people. It results in persecution, oppression, violence, and death. This "Christian loveʻ, is at the very least, spiritual abuse of Godʻs GLBT children. At its worst, it is evil committed against GLBT people in the name of God.
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@ Debra Myers (skyangel)
Great post and awesome comments! My thoughts are simple...as Sue said: live and let live.
Some can and some feel a "moral" obligation to try to change people. I have nothing against religious folks, know many and they are the nicest kindest people ever, then you see people like the Westboro crew and you realize some just hide behind religion. I do not know enough about the AFA to say one way or another which type they fall into. -
@ Susan Duclos
Some can and some feel a "moral" obligation to try to change people. I have nothing against religious folks, know many and they are the nicest kindest people ever, then you see people like the Westboro crew and you realize some just hide behind religion. I do not know enough about the AFA to say one way or another which type they fall into.
I agree with you Sue. I don't believe that it's anyone's "right" to try and persuade someone with their beliefs or morals, etc. I get along with people who don't try pushing these things in my face. -
Sykos Masters : I understand the distinction that you make ... and agree on most points. However, what gives anyone the right to "instill [their] values" in anyone else. Unless that person is one of my parents, I consider it an intrusion into my beliefs.
Actually, I agree with that and do not think anyone has the right to try to change another person's beliefs at all. Parents instill their beliefs into their children and the children later decide if those change according to how they think...as it should be.
With that said, I do not think they should but I understand why they think they are helping. They don't help, they only make people believe they are being hateful, but they just don't "get it".
To me it comes down to intent.
Do I think they intend to try to "change" people...Yes.
Do I think they intend for it to come across as hate? No.
That doesn't make it right for anyone to try to force their values on another person, but I compare those misguided ones to Westboro and I can see a clear cut difference in intent, which I think it is only fair to point out. -
I haven't said anything on this report mainly wanting to see if it remains civil, which it has.
Right now the only thing I am going to add is a little bit about the AFA as I get regular emails from them.
They are very frequently asking those who receive their emails to sign a petition to boycott some company because of their support of gay people.
They were boycotting Ford Motor Company for, I think it was, several years because of their support of gays.
My thoughts during that time was Ford was struggling and employs many people in the U.S. and their having a boycott was hurting the people who were employed by Ford with many losing their jobs. I don't know if the boycott had any effect on Ford but I am sure they lost many sales because of it.
The other auto companies all support the Gay agenda but AFA always chooses one to be boycotted and not everyone one.
Here is a list of the top 50 supporters of Gay rights.
OK gotta run as I have a hair appointment in an hour. Granddaughter is getting married today. :) -
@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
I haven't said anything on this report mainly wanting to see if it remains civil, which it has.
Right now the only thing I am going to add is a little bit about the AFA as I get regular emails from them.
They are very frequently asking those who receive their emails to sign a petition to boycott some company because of their support of gay people.
They were boycotting Ford Motor Company for, I think it was, several years because of their support of gays.
My thoughts during that time was Ford was struggling and employs many people in the U.S. and their having a boycott was hurting the people who were employed by Ford with many losing their jobs. I don't know if the boycott had any effect on Ford but I am sure they lost many sales because of it.
The other auto companies all support the Gay agenda but AFA always chooses one to be boycotted and not everyone one.
Here is a list of the top 50 supporters of Gay rights.
OK gotta run as I have a hair appointment in an hour. Granddaughter is getting married today. :)
Have fun and thanks for the info on AFA. -
Before we all jump on the I hate***** bandwagon it might be good to compare groups we are discussing.
"Mission
The NGLCC is committed to forming a broad-based coalition, representative of the various interests of LGBT owned and friendly businesses, professionals, and students of business for the purpose of promoting economic growth and prosperity of its members."
"Mission Statement
The American Family Association exists to motivate and equip citizens to change the culture to reflect Biblical truth."
It appears that both groups are ntrying to promote an agenda that will benefits those that believe as they do.
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@ sumdume
Before we all jump on the I hate***** bandwagon it might be good to compare groups we are discussing.
"Mission
The NGLCC is committed to forming a broad-based coalition, representative of the various interests of LGBT owned and friendly businesses, professionals, and students of business for the purpose of promoting economic growth and prosperity of its members."
"Mission Statement
The American Family Association exists to motivate and equip citizens to change the culture to reflect Biblical truth."
It appears that both groups are ntrying to promote an agenda that will benefits those that believe as they do.
Thanks for pointing that out sumdume, it is appreciated. As I said, I do not know about AFA, but there are three other large groups joining in the boycott because the McDonald's spokesman accused them of hate.
Perhaps those groups and their reasoning should be just as important as the AFA's to everyone.
Just a thought. -
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Posted Jul 19, 2008 by Tom |
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#24
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The other auto companies all support the Gay agenda but AFA always chooses one to be boycotted and not everyone one.
By the way, I don't know of a single gay person who subscribes to an "agenda" beyond that of being treated fairly and equitably. The organizations we've mentioned all like to tart out the so-called gay agenda. There isn't one. -
@ Tom
By the way, I don't know of a single gay person who subscribes to an "agenda" beyond that of being treated fairly and equitably. The organizations we've mentioned all like to tart out the so-called gay agenda. There isn't one.
Sorry Tom no offense meant. I was in a hurry when I wrote that and didn't pick the right words. -
"Really? Let me tell you how AFA and Focus on the Family and others like them show their "Christian loveʻ toward gay people. They are vigorously working to outlaw all legal protections for homosexuals. They are against gay marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships. They want to re-criminalize homosexuality. They are working against hate-crimes legislation that includes sexual orientation. They are making every effort to insure that ENDA, the Employment Non-discrimination Act, does not pass. This "Christian loveʻ results in homophobia, gay-bashing, and discriminatory legislation against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people. It results in persecution, oppression, violence, and death. This "Christian loveʻ, is at the very least, spiritual abuse of Godʻs GLBT children. At its worst, it is evil committed against GLBT people in the name of God."
Sounds like Hate to me. And FINANCIAL TERRORISM, and BIGOTRY, FANATICISM. The only problem with the word hate is that it probably gives them more credit than they deserve. Do schoolyard bullies "hate"? Or are they just pitiful, insecure, and afraid? What could possibly motivate someone to target a whole group of people by trying to deny them their basic dignity and the chance to live their own lives as they see fit?
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@Mums
Did we do good? See ... no broken beer bottles or anything ... LOL.
@Sue
Thanks for clearing up what you meant. I also try and take intent, as I perceive it, into account when I have to interact with "true believers". Those that have truly kind eyes and offer me their prayers, I willingly accept. Those that look at me like a porkchop get ignored, at best. I've learned from experience that they have no interest in my spiritual beliefs, so if they get really bothersome, I embellish .... lol.
@sundume
I don't see the comparison between the two mission statements. One is about economic growth and prosperity, the other is about forcing others to share their view of "what's right" according to one of many Holy Books.
@Tom
I can't even keep my daily agenda straight ... where would I find the time or energy to involve myself in a "gay agenda"?
@Kyle
I think you've hit the nail on the head when you refer to them as "bullies". They seem to think that if they take their toys out of the sandbox, it will follow them around. They don't seem to get that the sandbox is much bigger than they think.
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Sykos Masters: Thanks for clearing up what you meant. I also try and take intent, as I perceive it, into account when I have to interact with "true believers". Those that have truly kind eyes and offer me their prayers, I willingly accept. Those that look at me like a porkchop get ignored, at best. I've learned from experience that they have no interest in my spiritual beliefs, so if they get really bothersome, I embellish .... lol.
Thanks, I like to separate things. I do the same when speaking about liberals, I separate the far far left from the moderate because I do believe they are a truly separate group. I separate extremist Muslims that kill innocents from moderate peace loving wonderful Muslims that simply wish to practice their faith in peace.
I do not pretend to understand what gay men and women go through with bigotry, and I know being Jewish is a far cry from being gay, but if it is anything like the insults I have had to deal with daily, the antisemitism, the threats, the bigotry and the hatred spewed at me as people attack simply because of how I was born and what I believe, then I do feel I have some understanding and sympathy for what is being described. -
@ Sykos Masters
@Mums
Did we do good? See ... no broken beer bottles or anything ... LOL.
Son you all did real good. :)
I am sure you knew even though I apparently used the wrong word it was not meant to offend anyone.
You know Mums loves you, Son. :-)
OK I need to get dressed soon for my granddaughter's wedding. -
@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
Son you all did real good. :)
I am sure you knew even though I apparently used the wrong word it was not meant to offend anyone.
You know Mums loves you, Son. :-)
OK I need to get dressed soon for my granddaughter's wedding.
Enjoy and congrats Picasso! -
@ Susan Duclos
Thanks, I like to separate things. I do the same when speaking about liberals, I separate the far far left from the moderate because I do believe they are a truly separate group. I separate extremist Muslims that kill innocents from moderate peace loving wonderful Muslims that simply wish to practice their faith in peace.
I do not pretend to understand what gay men and women go through with bigotry, and I know being Jewish is a far cry from being gay, but if it is anything like the insults I have had to deal with daily, the antisemitism, the threats, the bigotry and the hatred spewed at me as people attack simply because of how I was born and what I believe, then I do feel I have some understanding and sympathy for what is being described.
I never doubted that you understood Sue =D
My experience was very much the same when I was younger — complicated by my "unique" heritage of German, Jewish, Mongolian and Gypsy. I've found that since being able to let most opinions wash over me, things have been easier. My list of anger-response triggers is much shorter than it used to be. -
@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
Son you all did real good. :)
I am sure you knew even though I apparently used the wrong word it was not meant to offend anyone.
You know Mums loves you, Son. :-)
OK I need to get dressed soon for my granddaughter's wedding.
Thx Mums :) ... we all want pictures of the event!!! -
@ Sykos Masters
Thx Mums :) ... we all want pictures of the event!!!
Yes...get us some pictures!!! -
@ Sykos Masters
I never doubted that you understood Sue =D
My experience was very much the same when I was younger — complicated by my "unique" heritage of German, Jewish, Mongolian and Gypsy. I've found that since being able to let most opinions wash over me, things have been easier. My list of anger-response triggers is much shorter than it used to be.
Good philosophy and one to be commended. -
@ Susan Duclos
Good philosophy and one to be commended.
Thx Sue. Lest I come off as some "enlightened" person, I learned to do this after aeons of getting frustrated over the smallest things. Now that this has become a part of how I chose to live my life, I find myself more at peace. Oddly, it's the important things like incivility, injustice, and battering the weak that get me going now. I figure I have a good 70 yrs to reach full enlightenment. -
@ Sykos Masters
Thx Sue. Lest I come off as some "enlightened" person, I learned to do this after aeons of getting frustrated over the smallest things. Now that this has become a part of how I chose to live my life, I find myself more at peace. Oddly, it's the important things like incivility, injustice, and battering the weak that get me going now. I figure I have a good 70 yrs to reach full enlightenment.
70 years? May I ask how old you are? Feel free to send me a private user contact if you do not wish to answer that here.
I find that you are a breath of fresh air to this forum, some of your positions I agree with, some I do not, but I see no matter the topic you are capable of civil, rational debate and that makes you an extremely rare breed.
I am glad you joined DJ. -
@ Susan Duclos
Why do you automatically assume that religious groups are "hate groups", they have a right to their opinion and as the AFA has stated very clearly on their site:
So, while I do not agree with them about trying to push their values on other people, to claim they "hate" is just as ignorant.
Sorry Sue, but they have shown through their actions that they are a hate group. The KKK also claims that they are a "Christian" organization who have a right to their opinions, but their actions tell you differently. The AFA hide behind the the smoke screen of "family values" but the fact is, they only believe ONE type of family represents family values. This country is made up of many different types of families including those with same sex partners and children. One cannot claim to be in favor of "family values" and then exclude families that don't meet the standard. I stand by what I said in the begining, they are a hate group. -
@ Susan Duclos
70 years? May I ask how old you are? Feel free to send me a private user contact if you do not wish to answer that here.
I find that you are a breath of fresh air to this forum, some of your positions I agree with, some I do not, but I see no matter the topic you are capable of civil, rational debate and that makes you an extremely rare breed.
I am glad you joined DJ.
Thank you very much Sue =D.
I'm actually 42, but most days I'm still able to tap into my child-like, wondering self, so I figure I have a good long time before I've had enough experience under my belt to move on. I'm a firm believer that you are as old as you believe yourself to be and I'm convinced that I have a ton more to learn and accomplish before I am done.
I have to thank my parents and some dear friends along the way for helping me to develop "social skills" and debating etiquette. I was always told that I can't change anyone's opinions or beliefs, I can only change my own, and hope that I've opened windows for others to look through if they choose. -
Wow, away for the weekend and how nice to come back and see this great dialog going. Many good points throughout.
I would like to chime in on the subject of intent. Personally, I have come to realize that the vast majority of those who treat gays negatively have no ill will. They think they are doing the right thing, so as far as intent goes I applaud them.
However, imagine someone believing that it was truly best for all of us if they bludgeoned you with a baseball bat. The good intentions dry up pretty fast. What you're left with is someone standing over you with a well-intentioned smile of satisfaction...and a bloody head.
I liked the bully on the playground analogy. We can all work to understand why the bully bullies (or why the right wing fights gay people), but in the end understanding the behavior and justifying it are entirely different things.
And yes of course there are groups who outright hate gays and make no bones about their hatred, but (in my opinion) the well-intentioned ones ought to think less about their intention and more about the resulting effect.
Lastly, comparing the two mission statements made me want to underline something few seem to fully appreciate: all gay folks want is equality. My obtaining civic equality need not take anything away from anybody. For an anti-gay group to obtain their goal, they take something from me: my equality, dignity, and justice. You really can't compare the two.
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The religious right is demonizing the GLBT community, plain and simple. Here are some quotes from a meeting fourteen years ago where they put more of their big wheels in motion:
(This happened in 1994 at a national meeting of Christian conservatives in Glen Eyrie, Colorado. )
John Eldridge, of Focus on the Family, outlined an agenda for the religious right to follow in its assault on gay rights. The agenda must:
. Change public perception about gay rights
. Use ideas and language that appeal to the public
. Create the impression that the anti-gay movement is a grass-roots movement
. Use lay people to keep the anti-gay movement going
. Develop a long-term project to convince evangelical pastors to support the anti-gay movement.
More from Eldridge: “We need to show why society needs to make certain demands on people sexually. We must never appear to be attempting to rob anyone of their rights — their constitutional rights. We must never appear to be mean-spirited or bigoted. We must be shrewd to get consensus for our position by appealing to shared values and concern, and issues of fairness and justice."
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Posted Jul 22, 2008 by Tom |
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#41
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@Donnie
My obtaining civic equality need not take anything away from anybody.
If you're asserting that the groups that we've been discussing have no ill will against gay people, it's your quote, cited above, that leads me to disagree with that. Let's take marriage, for example. There's nothing that my marriage to my same-sex husband (I live in CA and was married last month on the first day of court-sanctioned same-sex marriages) changes about your heterosexual marriage. Your marriage is exactly the same as it was. Your children are as healthy and happy as they were yestereday, your husband/wife as energetic and productive.
The issue is not about the destruction of marriage, the family, western civilization, or the planet. What it's about is the hatred of groups like this for gay people. It is not a rational response, but visceral. It's not that I'm second-class, it's that they'd like to throw me in jail, or push a stone wall on top of me, as they do in Iran. (Actually, you get to choose in Iran between the stone wall, hanging, shooting, or drawing and quartering.) And it's interesting, because a survey late last year done by the Barna Group, a Christian survey group concerned with the declining Christian population, found that even Christians, overwehlmingly, are turned off by the kind of rhetoric these organizaions spew.
Maybe the tides are turning, but I'm jaded enough not to hold my breath. -
@ Tom
@Donnie
Maybe the tides are turning, but I'm jaded enough not to hold my breath.
Hope I'm not interrupting Tom. Firstly congrats on the nuptials!!! Prince and I are saving up enough to be able to afford inviting more than the witnesses on our Grand Day ...lol. Luckily we live in Canada, so we'll be legal all across the country :)
This whole conversation has reminded me of the graveyard scene in Torch Song Trilogy. As Arnold said (which is the belief of "Family First Fundies"), "Those that do [die], deserve what they get because f*gs don't matter." I've often felt like I was waiting for a taxi to take me away from the graveside.
As an aside, I doubt that you're that jaded .... you did fight convention and get married to your love after all =D -
To the article itself - because the AFA is all about "neutrality", right and unbiased belief systems?
I am offended that the AFA uses the term FAMILY and AMERICAN next to one another as part of their organization, somehow showing a representation of all Americans (American) with children or wanting to raise children (Family) Association.
My family doesn't agree with the judgemental nature of the AFA so I take offense to my family, who is a very large family, being used as part of "that" organization.
Marriage is about love. I will continue to support that no matter what the gender. With 1/2 of our American Families ending in divorce first time around, homosexuals problably know how to stay married better anyway!
So, I continue to enjoy the FAMILY environment of McDonalds, the place where my kids can play free from judgement. I will, however, continue my boycott of Subway, who discriminates against homeschooled children.
Me and my husband support this cause together.
Great article.
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I wanted to comment on the idea of the AFA as a hate group. The AFA's position isn't quite so monolithic. I've been subscribed to their forum for a number of years and have seen a bit of variety on how they treat the subject along at least two different axes. First, over time their positions have moderated a bit. When I first subscribed to their mailing list they never mentioned any interest in trying to make corporations stay "neutral in the culture war," nor did they make any disclaimers about their actions "not being about homosexual employment" etc... If I were to guess, I'd say this is probably a concious attempt to soften their outward face for more public presentation of their viewpoints.
The other axis to look at is the discrepancy in how they treat individual homosexuals versus people or organizations they view as being part of a homosexual movement. In his emails, Donald Wildmon will frequently use a variety of highly denigrating terminology to refer to members of the homosexual movement, but with regards to indivdual homosexuals he has moved more towards refering to them as "lost" or "confused" or just avoids talking about them alltogether, focusing more on broader issues of principal. It is very clear that he hates, in all senses of the word, anyone he percieves as involved in the gay agenda. He is, however, simply patronizing towards homosexuals in general.
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@ Nikki W (karateblossom)
To the article itself - because the AFA is all about "neutrality", right and unbiased belief systems?
I am offended that the AFA uses the term FAMILY and AMERICAN next to one another as part of their organization, somehow showing a representation of all Americans (American) with children or wanting to raise children (Family) Association.
My family doesn't agree with the judgemental nature of the AFA so I take offense to my family, who is a very large family, being used as part of "that" organization.
Marriage is about love. I will continue to support that no matter what the gender. With 1/2 of our American Families ending in divorce first time around, homosexuals problably know how to stay married better anyway!
So, I continue to enjoy the FAMILY environment of McDonalds, the place where my kids can play free from judgement. I will, however, continue my boycott of Subway, who discriminates against homeschooled children.
Me and my husband support this cause together.
Great article.
Thanks and JamesPS thank you as well for another view on the organization. -
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Posted Jul 22, 2008 by Tom |
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#46
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@JamesPS
If I were to guess, I'd say this is probably a concious attempt to soften their outward face for more public presentation of their viewpoints.
Exactly! I think they've found that the old messages don't play well to their base. They sounded too much like Fred Phelps - God Hates F*gs - so they've had to soften them a bit. But the spirits still there.
@Sykos Masters
Thanks! This is actually the second time around. We were one of the 4000 couples to get married in San Francisco in 2004 - Valentines Day. In that ceremony, we didn't even take a witness. The couple behind us witnessed for us, and we for them. It was not very romantic, I guess, but made me cry anyway. -
There are many parallels between the propaganda of Americaʻs current religious right and that of Nazi Germany (in its demonization of Jews.) Jews were portrayed as filthy, diseased, Jesus-killing, child-abductors. GLBT people, according to the literature available from Focus, AFA, and others, are filthy, diseased, Jesus-hating, child-molestors. A visit to any of the large fundamentalist websites will lead the reader to links and/or literature (and junk science) depicting homosexuals as the most foul beings on the planet. The people responsible for these reports (Cameron, Nicolosi, et al) have been disavowed and disowned by reputable, mainstream scientific and professional organizations. But these folks have an agenda. It goes way beyond denying marriage rights to same-sex couples. They are very serious in their desire to wipe sexual minorities off the map.
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@Dee
I completely agree, with one correction; Jews were actually treated slightly better than Gays during the Nazi occupation of Europe—in that Gays were more or less exterminated on site.
The most interesting / disturbing things about the 3Fs is they can wrap up all their hatred, bigotry, and desire to retake the Western world in "religious freedom". Their Bible – as translated and interpreted by them – says "so and so", therefore is must be truth. That certainly sounds like an agenda to me.
The huge problem with this tunnel vision, for them, is occasionally something comes along out of the side and obliterates one's vision.
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Posted Jul 23, 2008 by Tom |
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#49
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@Sykos Masters
The huge problem with this tunnel vision, for them, is occasionally something comes along out of the side and obliterates one's vision
I'm not sure what that means.
Occasionally something does comes along out of the side that shows just how obliterated one's vision really is. Last week that something was the article on onenewsnow.com, an AFA-sponsored website, that announced that "Tyson Homosexual" had won his race. This one just fractured me. They apparently take news feeds from the major services (this from AP) and automatically change any instance of "gay" to "homosexual". Tyson Gay, the (straight) American runner, thereby became "Tyson Homosexual".
Hate, to be convincing, really should to be implemented manually. What gratification are you going to get, after all, if you don't change all those "gays" to "homosexuals" one by one? :) -
@ Tom
I'm not sure what that means.
Sorry Tom,
What I meant was that when the 3Fs are the most convinced in their "rightness", chance comes along and side-swipes them. Your Tyson example is a perfect case (btw - I had read that certain websites were suffering from automatic search / replace / destroy bots).
The 3Fs are against equal rights for all ... along comes Canada (my country) and shows them that "traditional marriage" doesn't get destroyed along the way. Their anti-gay rhetoric and babble goes unchallenged ... wham ... one of their own pastors is caught in a same-sex scandal.
That's what I meant about the danger of tunnel vision. -
@ Dee Dale
There are many parallels between the propaganda of Americaʻs current religious right and that of Nazi Germany (in its demonization of Jews.) Jews were portrayed as filthy, diseased, Jesus-killing, child-abductors. GLBT people, according to the literature available from Focus, AFA, and others, are filthy, diseased, Jesus-hating, child-molestors. A visit to any of the large fundamentalist websites will lead the reader to links and/or literature (and junk science) depicting homosexuals as the most foul beings on the planet. The people responsible for these reports (Cameron, Nicolosi, et al) have been disavowed and disowned by reputable, mainstream scientific and professional organizations. But these folks have an agenda. It goes way beyond denying marriage rights to same-sex couples. They are very serious in their desire to wipe sexual minorities off the map.
I'd like to add to this. Few people seem to realize that at the liberation of Germany in 1945, everyone from the internment camps was freed and an attempt made to reunite them with family members, EXCEPT homosexuals. The few homosexuals left, who had not been exterminated, were in many cases, returned to prison to finish the sentence imposed by the Third Reich. All of the Nazi laws regarding those in the camps were repealed immediately EXCEPT the ones against homosexuals. Homosexuality was illegal in Germany until the 1960s. Once again, in America today, we see the same prejudice by the ultra-right in the name of "family values" "Christianity" and "Social Order". Shouldn't we have learned from the past??? -
@ Tom
@Donnie
If you're asserting that the groups that we've been discussing have no ill will against gay people, it's your quote, cited above, that leads me to disagree with that.
Tom, I'm actually neither heterosexual nor married. I think you misunderstood something in my post; I'm in complete agreement with you.
The other point I was trying to make is that while I do agree that there is plenty of ill will from groups like the AFA toward gays, it helps me to remember that many of these folks are well intentioned. That doesn't excuse anything, but it does help understand it and understanding is often a key to agreement. -
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Posted Jul 24, 2008 by Tom |
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#53
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@Donnie
Actually, I wasn't assuming either. The point I was trying to make was that the reaction of the religionists to gay people isn't rational, and was using their visceral reaction to the idea of gay people marrying as an example of that.
What I thought I'd sensed in your post was a message of forgiveness through understanding, and while I'm always interested in understanding, I'm unlikely to forgive these virulently anti-gay organizations anytime soon. They've just done too much harm.
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Tom, thanks for the clarification. I understand where you're at.
For me, I've found when I let my anger take over no one listens except those who already agree. I think I've won over some people by approaching them from a perspective of understanding, and calmly walking them through my view in terms they can relate to.
I guess I believe that there are a lot of moderate people currently supporting those organizations, and if we can chip away at them one rational person at a time it could make a very impactful difference.
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What the religious right has in mind is a fascist theocratic take-over of America. Just last week, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services redefined abortion so broadly that the definition of ʻabortionʻ now includes ordinary birth-control pills. (Hillary Clinton and others are working to overturn it.) Millions of well-meaning Americans support these organizations out of love for Jesus. They are unaware of the horrid untruths foisted on them by the fanatic, power-hungry leaders. Our media is a complicit accomplice. They donʻt ask the right questions. They just go for soundbites.
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@ Dee Dale
What the religious right has in mind is a fascist theocratic take-over of America. Just last week, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services redefined abortion so broadly that the definition of ʻabortionʻ now includes ordinary birth-control pills. (Hillary Clinton and others are working to overturn it.) Millions of well-meaning Americans support these organizations out of love for Jesus. They are unaware of the horrid untruths foisted on them by the fanatic, power-hungry leaders. Our media is a complicit accomplice. They donʻt ask the right questions. They just go for soundbites.
Welcome to DJ Dee Dale.
Any organization that anyone sends money to they should check them out first.
How concerned is any organization for families that says they are for families when they ask their members to boycott a company that employees U.S. citizens that could lose their jobs because of their boycotts.
Just because an organization has "family" or "Christian" in their name check them out to see if you actually agree with their policies. -
For those of us who are clergy members who wish to sign petitions affirming the right of all Americans to marry, please visit:
http://www.religiousinstitute.org/marriageextra.html-
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Posted Jul 25, 2008 by Tom |
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#58
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@Donnie
I guess I believe that there are a lot of moderate people currently supporting those organizations, and if we can chip away at them one rational person at a time it could make a very impactful difference.
This is very sensible. My anger has tripped me up more often than I'd like, especially in the last seven years. Add a Comment
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Gay-Marriage Opponents Enraged Over McDonald's Claim They Spread Hate
