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Op-Ed: Seattle Times Claims 'Hitler's Demands Not Unreasonable'

Posted May 16, 2008 by  Johnny Simpson in Politics | 14 comments | 320 views
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In response to the imbroglio arising from President Bush's 'Appeasement Speech' to the Knesset, the Seattle Times' Bruce Ramsay editorialized that even Hitler's violent putsch of Austria was justified at the time. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
First, I give you the words of Mr. Ramsay himself, straight from the Seattle Times editorial page:

Democrats are rebuking President Bush for saying in his speech to the Knesset, here, that to “negotiate with terrorists and radicals” is “appeasement.” The Democrats took it as a slap at Barack Obama. What bothers me is the continual reference to Hitler and his National Socialists, particularly the British and French accommodation at the Munich Conference of 1938.

What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable. He wanted the German-speaking areas of Europe under German authority. He had just annexed Austria, which was German-speaking, without bloodshed. There were two more small pieces of Germanic territory: the free city of Danzig and the Sudetenland, a border area of what is now the Czech Republic.

Let's frst take a look at the 'bloodless' annexation, or 'anschluss' of Austria in March 1938, of which my historical memory is far different from Mr. Ramsay's.

By early 1938, Hitler had consolidated his dictatorial power over Germany and was applying enormous political pressure to the Austrian government to comply with Nazi dictats or face invasion.

The Austrian government complied, lifting a ban on the Austrian Nazi Party, freeing Brownshirt agitators from prison, and even went so far as to appoint Austrian Nazis to powerful political positions in the Austrian government to avoid war with Hitler.

However, as pressure mounted from within and without Austria, on March 9, 1938, Austrian President Kurt Schusschnigg announced a plebiscite, or referendum, on Austrian independence to be held March 13th.

On March 11th, Hitler demanded that Schuschnigg hand over all power to Austrian Nazi officials by noon that day or face invasion. One hour after noon Hitler ordered the invasion of Austria to proceed.

Since England and France were unwilling to back Austria, Schuschnigg handed over power to the Nazis in a radio broadcast, a matter rendered academic by the seizure of all major government offices by Austrian Nazis.

On the morning of March 12th, 1938, the German 8th Army crossed the German-Austrian border. Even before that, Heinrich Himmler, the architect of the Final Solution, and other top German Nazi officials arrived in Vienna to arrest top government officials.

Within only a few days, over 70,000 Austrians, primarily Social Democrats, Communists, and other potential political dissenters, as well as Jews, were arrested and imprisoned or shipped off to concentration camps, never to be seen again.

Hitler entered Austria, triumphant, an April 2, 1938.

This is the 'bloodless annex' Mr. Ramsay speaks of.

Mr. Ramsay also made the following statement in his editorial as well:

When the British let Hitler have a slice of Czechoslovakia, they were following their historical wisdom: avoid war. War produces results far more horrible than you expected. War is a bad investment. It is not glorious. Don’t give anyone an excuse to start one.


In other words, 'Avoid war at all costs.'

Pay whatever price, no matter how high.

I ask you, how is that any different from Neville Chamberlain's attitude vis-a-vis Hitler?

In the broader context, I would also point out that Jimmy Carter has even claimed that the American Revolution was an unnecessary war. His words, from October 2004:

Well, one parallel is that the Revolutionary War, more than any other war up until recently, has been the most bloody war we've fought. I think another parallel is that in some ways the Revolutionary War could have been avoided. It was an unnecessary war.

Had the British Parliament been a little more sensitive to the colonials' really legitimate complaints and requests the war could have been avoided completely, and of course now we would have been a free country now as is Canada and India and Australia, having gotten our independence in a nonviolent way.


You got all that?

'If only the British were a little more sensitive to American Colonialists.'

As it seems, Mr. Carter is being sensitive today to Hamas, a terrorist organization which seized Gaza in a bloody coup and is sworn to the genocide of the Jews.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, it would seem that at every opportunity men like Chamberlain, Carter and Ramsay could choose dishonor or war, they will always choose dishonor.

And they will always get war.

Some things never change.

I will, however, for the historical record, point out to Mr. Ramsay and Mr. Carter that there are far worse things in this world than war.

The Crematoria at Auschwitz, Poland
teachpol.tcnj.edu (Public Domain)


Taliban Execution of a Woman at Soccer Game
www.michaeltotten.com (Public Domain)




The last question I will ask you is this: why is it that Jimmy Carter, Bruce Ramsay, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton and Sen. Joe 'BS' Biden are so out of sorts over Bush stating an historical fact about appeasing unappeasable enemies?

You'd have thought he'd struck a raw nerve.
article:254822:8::0

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  • avatar Posted May 16, 2008 by  Mr Garibaldi
    #1
    Bold, accurate, and timely.

    Well done.
  • avatar Posted May 16, 2008 by  Samantha A. Torrence
    #2
    Yup people are getting mighty offended that they are being called out on their idiocy, of course they aren't ashamed of their point of view, they just don't want other people to know it until they are in power. If Obama in particular takes the presidency, America will be done, we will be completely at the whim of other countries and our sovereignty nullified.
  • avatar Posted May 16, 2008 by  Orange
    #3
    That's a good article in many ways. Your history is right on.

    Unfortunately, you fall victim to G. W. Bush's spin-doctoring and word-smithing where he attempted to make very different things equivalent. Talking is not the same thing as negotiating, and neither of them is the same thing as "appeasement". I don't recall any speech where Obama said that he would make concessions to Hamas or any Arab terrorists. Do you? Did I miss something?

    That is not a rhetorical question. It's a real question. When did Obama say that he wanted to negotiate and make concessions?
  • avatar Posted May 17, 2008 by  Johnny Simpson
    #4
    Orange, One of Obama's advisors, Robert Malley, was recently tossed from his campaign for holding talks with Hamas.

    There are also indications his campaign has had some dealings with FARC.

    Back to Hamas for a minute.

    Hamas is as sworn to the genocide of the Jews as Hitler ever was. The same appears true of Iran by Amedinejad's own words. What is the point of diplomatic negotiations with them?

    Also, Hamas launched a rocket from Gaza that landed in an Israeli shopping mall. That's on top of the over 1000 missiles that have been launched from Gaza since it was handed over to the Palestinians on a silver platter in 2005.

    Tell me, if this conflict were occurring between the US and Canada, and the Canadians launched a rocket that struck dead center in the Mall of America, would that be an act of diplomacy or an act of war?

    What would there be for us to talk about? Understanding Canada's grievances? Blaming the victims?

    Should we have been holding diplomatic talks with Al Qaeda after 9/11? There were many here in the US who thought so, including actor Richard Gere.

    Diplomacy only works with parties who seek solutions to problems and are willing to honor agreements and treaties, not with those who seek conquest and genocide.

    I happen to think that was the point Bush was making in his Knesset speech, and though I don't agree with much Bush has to say, I do with that. There really is no difference between the Nazis and Hamas, or even Ahmedinejad for that matter. Look at what's happening in Iran.

    Look at the facts. Israel conceded the entire Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, and now it's a terrorist hellhole. Hezbollah is doing much the same to Lebanon. And Iran is sworn to the destruction of the 'stinking corpse' Israel.

    By the way, Hezbollah's leader Hassan Nasrallah stated that he wished all the Jews would return to Israel so they wouldn't have to hunt them down across the globe to exterminate them.

    Where do you start negotiations with a guy like that?
  • Sue D. Posted May 17, 2008 by  Sue D.
    #5
    Spot on and very well said.
  • sumdume Posted May 17, 2008 by  sumdume
    #6
    Orange - man are you spinning this. What are they going to talk about if they are not negotiating, girls, football, religion?

    I can see the transcript now:
    Barrack Obama- Hey Goober-Akim wat up man?
    Goober-Akim- SUP

    BO- Your Ho sure looks good
    GA- Word

    BO- That burka makes her ankles look thin.
    GA - Yep

    GA- Think Manning and the Giants will repeat?
    BO- Nope- the Bears will take it this year

    LOL

    BTW- when did G. W. Bush's say that he was referring to Barrack Obama in the speech? Is it possible that he was talking about Jimmy Carter and his recent negotiations with terrorists?
  • Sue D. Posted May 17, 2008 by  Sue D.
    #7
    @ sumdume
    Orange - man are you spinning this. What are they going to talk about if they are not negotiating, girls, football, religion?

    I can see the transcript now:
    Barrack Obama- Hey Goober-Akim wat up man?
    Goober-Akim- SUP

    BO- Your Ho sure looks good
    GA- Word

    BO- That burka makes her ankles look thin.
    GA - Yep

    GA- Think Manning and the Giants will repeat?
    BO- Nope- the Bears will take it this year

    LOL

    BTW- when did G. W. Bush's say that he was referring to Barrack Obama in the speech? Is it possible that he was talking about Jimmy Carter and his recent negotiations with terrorists?



    I think it is possible he was talking about the whole lot of them. Obama's original comments about speaking to Iran with no preconditions (which is stated on his own website), Carter playing footsie with Hamas and how about Pelosi with her highly publicized failure of a trip to Syria...just to name a few.

    Since when has the truth been off limits? They have appeased, time after time and they were called out on it publicly, which is exactly why they are becoming hysterical about the topic.
  • RCB2875 Posted May 17, 2008 by  RCB2875
    #8
    Unfortunately, you fall victim to G. W. Bush's spin-doctoring and word-smithing where he attempted to make very different things equivalent. Talking is not the same thing as negotiating, and neither of them is the same thing as "appeasement". I don't recall any speech where Obama said that he would make concessions to Hamas or any Arab terrorists. Do you? Did I miss something?

    That is not a rhetorical question. It's a real question. When did Obama say that he wanted to negotiate and make concessions?


    The futility of it possibly? How long has this feud been going on? They have proven that they use A Marxist style tactics of do ,say anything to gain more power or establish an advantage. Personally I think Obama is just looking for a legitimate reason to sit down and have Bagh-Lava with them and get some pointers
  • RCB2875 Posted May 17, 2008 by  RCB2875
    #9
    BTW wasn't it a couple of Dems. that were recently over there making statements that would otherwise be considered treason by standard law? The names escape me atm but I think it was Pelosi and one other
  • avatar Posted May 17, 2008 by  Orange
    #10
    Hello Johnny,
    RE:

    Orange, One of Obama's advisors, Robert Malley, was recently tossed from his campaign for holding talks with Hamas.

    There are also indications his campaign has had some dealings with FARC.



    Okay, so they threw Malley "under the bus" for publicity reasons. What else is new? That is unfortunately how politics works. I don't like politics, but it's how our politicians get elected.


    And, the line, "There are also indications his campaign has had some dealings with FARC" is classic word-smithing, propaganda tricks to the max. That is just baseless insinuation.

    When you go to that link, what it actually says is, "Turns out Barack Obama is discussed on FARC computer equipment captured during the raid."

    That is beyond thin and vague. Would you declare that G.W. Bush was guilty of appeasement if he was mentioned on a Hamas or FARC computer disk drive?

    And as for the line, "Hamas is as sworn to the genocide of the Jews as Hitler ever was."
    Do you not understand why?
  • avatar Posted May 17, 2008 by  Samantha A. Torrence
    #11
    Okay, so they threw Malley "under the bus" for publicity reasons. What else is new? That is unfortunately how politics works. I don't like politics, but it's how our politicians get elected.


    Throwing Malley "under the bus" was indicative that he was meeting with Hamas under orders of Obama and his campaign else it would have been a plain ole "firing" and not "throwing under the bus." That is a rather weak argument, trying to shift the point that "it's just politics." That is well established, but the reasoning wasn't for giggles.

    When you go to that link, what it actually says is, "Turns out Barack Obama is discussed on FARC computer equipment captured during the raid."


    I wonder what was discussed about him

    In a Feb. 28 letter, FARC chieftain Raul Reyes cheerily reported to his inner circle that he met "two gringos" who assured him "the new president of their country will be Obama and that they are interested in your compatriots. Obama will not support 'Plan Colombia' nor will he sign the TLC (Free Trade Agreement)."


    From the Letter:

    The gringos will ask for an appointment with the minister to solicit him to communicate to us his interest in discussing these topics. They say that the new president of their country will be Obama and that they are interested in your compatriots. Obama will not support "Plan Colombia" nor will he sign the TLC (Colombian Free Trade agreement). Here we responded that we are interested in relations with all governments in equality of conditions and that in the case of the US it is required a public pronouncement expressing their interest in talking with the FARC given their eternal war against us.

    A statement btw, that Obama never distanced himself from. This was more than a mere mention. So while there is no proof Obama is sympathetic with the FARC beyond his lack of support for Colombia, the whole account is entirely suspicious and speaks loads of his supporters. That alone should worry people.

    That is beyond thin and vague. Would you declare that G.W. Bush was guilty of appeasement if he was mentioned on a Hamas or FARC computer disk drive?
    If Bush has been discussed in the capacity Obama was discussed above there would be an investigation if not impeachment trials, but that is neither here nor there, this isn't about Bush it is about Obama.


    And as for the line, "Hamas is as sworn to the genocide of the Jews as Hitler ever was."



    I am sure you will "enlighten" us.
  • avatar Posted May 17, 2008 by  Johnny Simpson
    #12
    Orange said,
    And as for the line, "Hamas is as sworn to the genocide of the Jews as Hitler ever was."
    Do you not understand why?


    Orange, Are you REALLY asking me to understand the reasons why someone would want to commit genocide?

    I have nothing further to say to you. Ever.
  • Jedediah Redman Posted May 17, 2008 by  Jedediah Redman
    #13
    That is a fine statement of intellectuality on the right...
  • avatar Posted May 18, 2008 by  Orange
    #14
    @ Johnny Simpson
    Orange said, Orange, Are you REALLY asking me to understand the reasons why someone would want to commit genocide?

    I have nothing further to say to you. Ever.



    I said "understand", not "agree with" or "approve of". When you understand where someone is coming from then you have a tool you can use to at least try to get him to change his behavior.

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