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article imageOp-Ed: Goliath loses again, Israel retreats

Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67 in Politics | 32 comments | 331 views
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After yet another humiliating defeat, the once mighty Israeli forces have retreated from Gaza under a whithering bombardment of international condemnation, their mission ending once again in failure.
Operation "Hot Winter" began last Saturday as a limited ground incursion into Gaza but soon escalated as additional forces were called for. Defense Minister Ehud Barak told senior military commanders, "The time has come for action. Hamas is responsible and will pay a price."

Unfortunately for the once vaunted Israeli war machine there does not appear to have been any clear objectives, other than a "tit for tat" revenge for the killing of one Israeli man by rocket fire. This was the first such casualty in the past nine months and one of only thirteen in the past eight years according to Israeli officials. In comparison the Israeli response is believed to have killed 116 Palestinians, at least half of whom were unarmed civilians and many of those children.

Although Barak had vowed to knock the Palestinian group Hamas from power and Israel's Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai warned the Palestinians that they were facing a shoah or "catastrophe" (some say "holocaust") the once feared Israeli Defense Force (IDF) instead found itself forced to withdraw because of the worldwide outcry against their ham fisted tactics.

Little David verses
Among the many world leaders that have demanded an end to the Israeli invasion U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon criticized Israel for using "excessive" force. The European Union blasted Israel for it's "disproportionate use of force" which they deemed "contrary to international law."

Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan said of the invasion:
"We told them to solve the issue with diplomacy. However, unfortunately, they did not choose the way Turkey has shown them. This is a matter of identity...it is not possible for us to approve of this inhuman application. Kids are murdered by disproportional use of power. These attacks can not be explained on humanitarian or legal basis. As Turkish government, we condemn the attitude of Israel clearly."
Jewish groups such as the anti-Zionist Neturei Karta ("Guardians of the City") has called on the world to "stop the wild beast of the Zionist state from destroying the Palestinian people."

Even Israel's staunchest ally, the US, has called for Israel to end its invasion telling Israel that "The violence needs to stop and the talks need to resume."

Goliath
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has left for the Middle East in the hopes of restarting the stalled peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, which is led by President Mahmoud Abbas, a bitter rival of Hamas. Despite his party's deep hatred of Hamas, President Abbas has pulled out of the talks in protest against Israel's tactics.

As the Bush administration limps to the finish line there had been hope that they could salvage some sort of "legacy" by helping to broker a peace agreement between Israel and the captive Palestinians but with the failure of this latest Israeli invasion there seems very little prospect of this happening before Bush leaves office.

Martin Indyk, head of the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution in Washington, was once one of the most ardent supporters of the Bush peace process but is now highly critical of its chances for success saying:
"What the administration has managed to do is turn a situation in which it was better-late-than never into a situation where it is too-little-too-late...Across the board, it is very hard to point to anything that has been achieved since Annapolis."

In addition to scuttling the peace process Israels latest blunder has only managed in further unite the residents of Gaza against Israel. It also provoked violent protests in the occupied West Bank where Israeli soldiers around Nablus, Qalqilya, Bethlehem and East Jerusalem came under attack from crowds of Palestinian youths throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails.

Hebron shopkeeper Hossam al-Bakri, who had closed his store in solidarity with Gaza told reporters:
"They have been negotiating for 15 years and we have gained nothing. Israel is the one that will provoke an intifada. ... Israel has to choose between war and peace."


Gaza residents celebrate the Israeli retreat.

As the Israeli forces pulled out, having provoked world wide condemnation without achieving any of their objectives, Hamas declared victory and underlined the truth of their claim by firing more rockets into southern Israel.
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  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #1
    What a sad state of affairs this whole mess is.
    It seems to be a constant tit for tat and who are the ones paying for this constant fighting??
    Mostly the innocent that exist in a living Hell.
    I know from personal contact with an Arab in Bethlehem they live their never ending Hell. They do not see an end to this or any hope.

    How truly horrible and heart breaking.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #2
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    What a sad state of affairs this whole mess is.
    It seems to be a constant tit for tat and who are the ones paying for this constant fighting??
    Mostly the innocent that exist in a living Hell.
    I know from personal contact with an Arab in Bethlehem they live their never ending Hell. They do not see an end to this or any hope.

    How truly horrible and heart breaking.

    It is in Israel's power to end it. These exercises in pointless brutality have never achieved their goal and have only served to radicalize the Palestinians.

    The captive population had suffered in peace under Israeli rule for two decades before Israeli oppression finally drove them to rebel. Since then the Israeli's brutality has only made them an international pariah and served to dispel the myth of "poor little Israel," that they have so carefully cultivated for so long.

    They are the military and nuclear Goliath of the region and these brutal incursions only serve to remind the world of that fact.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #3
    As the Israeli forces pulled out, having provoked world wide condemnation without achieving any of their objectives, Hamas declared victory and underlined the truth of their claim by firing more rockets into southern Israel.


    If Hamas fired more rockets into Israel after they had pulled out it would seem that it is a little more complicated than just saying that Israel could end it.

    Even with the U.S. telling Israel to end its evasion and they did pull out but still Hamas had to fire more rockets. If they would desire a peaceful solution it seems like they would wait to see what would transpire next.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #4
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    If Hamas fired more rockets into Israel after they had pulled out it would seem that it is a little more complicated than just saying that Israel could end it.

    Even with the U.S. telling Israel to end its evasion and they did pull out but still Hamas had to fire more rockets. If they would desire a peaceful solution it seems like they would wait to see what would transpire next.

    Israel could end it by recognizing the democratically elected government of Gaza instead of placing the entire territory under siege and conspiring with the Americans to overthrow them.

    Sure Hamas is radical and does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. So what? One does not have to negotiate with one's friends and the mere fact that Hamas is hostile is no reason not to deal with them. Other Arab states have been hostile to Israel as well but they eventually learned to negotiate with them.

    Besides, if Hamas was given power and then failed to satisfy the people then the people would lose faith in them and withdraw their support. By attacking Hamas and trying to undermine them covertly all Israel and the US has managed to do is to make them into heroes.

    Political responsibility tends to moderate even the most radical political parties and if it does not then their failure to meet the needs of their constituents ends their hold on power.

    The bottom line is that the Israeli's first, and often only, response to the demands of the Palestinians for justice has been violence. They have use this same tactic for 60 years and it has not worked. It is time to try something else.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #5
    Rice said that she is confident in the chances of success for the Israeli-Palestinian peace process which began in November. She blamed Hamas for the recent violence in the Middle East.

    She will be having discussions with the Egyptians, the Palestinians and the Israelis about how to stop the violence.
    She said that Hamas needs to cease from firing rockets into Israeli cities.

    She also stated:
    "Obviously the situation in Gaza is one that is concerning," But ... we need to continue to work, first of all to make certain that everyone understands that Hamas is doing what might be expected, which is using attacks, rocket attacks on Israel to try to arrest a peace process in which they have nothing to gain."


    Lensman:
    Sure Hamas is radical and does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. So what? One does not have to negotiate with one's friends and the mere fact that Hamas is hostile is no reason not to deal with them. Other Arab states have been hostile to Israel as well but they eventually learned to negotiate with them.


    If Hamas was interested in peace and the people of the land it seems they would cease to fire rockets into the cities of Israel and give the peace talks a chance.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #6
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    Rice said that she is confident in the chances of success for the Israeli-Palestinian peace process which began in November. She blamed Hamas for the recent violence in the Middle East.

    She will be having discussions with the Egyptians, the Palestinians and the Israelis about how to stop the violence.
    She said that Hamas needs to cease from firing rockets into Israeli cities.

    She also stated:
    If Hamas was interested in peace and the people of the land it seems they would cease to fire rockets into the cities of Israel and give the peace talks a chance.

    Hamas has no reason to be interested in peace on terms favorable to Israel and Israel will accept nothing less. Had the Israelis had the common sense to allow the Palestinians some hope then the would have found that they would be reluctant to lose it but people without hope are almost impossible to intimidate.

    Does Israel think that the if they kill enough Palestinian children that the people will be forced to live at peace with them? It is not going to happen
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Debra Myers (skyangel)
    #7
    It would be a bloody miracle if peace could ever find these peoples.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #8
    @ Debra Myers (skyangel)
    It would be a bloody miracle if peace could ever find these peoples.

    The Palestinians tried peace for twenty years and all it got them were Israeli "settlements" on their land. If Israel wants peace they should give back ALL of the occupied territory.

    There is still time for a two state solution but not for much longer. Soon there will be no option but a one state solution with the Israelis a minority in the new state.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #9
    @ Debra Myers (skyangel)
    It would be a bloody miracle if peace could ever find these peoples.


    I most certainly agree Sky. I believe that sometimes miracles do happen but here I don't see it ever happening.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #10
    @ lensman67
    Hamas has no reason to be interested in peace on terms favorable to Israel and Israel will accept nothing less. Had the Israelis had the common sense to allow the Palestinians some hope then the would have found that they would be reluctant to lose it but people without hope are almost impossible to intimidate.

    Does Israel think that the if they kill enough Palestinian children that the people will be forced to live at peace with them? It is not going to happen


    It looks like neither side wants to have a mediator that could present a compromise. They both want only their way and who cares about those caught in the middle.

    Sad to say the least.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #11
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    I most certainly agree Sky. I believe that sometimes miracles do happen but here I don't see it ever happening.

    If Israel wants peace they will have to give the Palestinians justice. The Palestinians are the injured party here and have no room to give up anything. However once they have justice they will be far more likely to return the favor.

    Israel gets what it gives. If it gives war it will get war. If it wants peace it must first give peace a chance.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #12
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    It looks like neither side wants to have a mediator that could present a compromise. They both want only their way and who cares about those caught in the middle.

    Sad to say the least.

    The "compromise" that the Israelis want is to be allowed to keep the land that they stole in the '67 war. None of the "settlements" are legal under international law.

    Israel is loosing the battle for world opinion. The day is not far off when they will face sanctions the way that their good friends the White government of South Africa did and with the same results.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  666divine
    #13
    Good report, Lensman, as usual.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #14
    Since Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by some including Canada, the U.S. and Japan do they represent how the majority of the Palestinians feel?

    But with what is going on I would imagine that the majority of Palestinians would have no use for the Israelis at this point.

    When it comes right down to it if it wasn't for the government officials and what they impose on people many could live side by side and get along fine.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #15
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    Since Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by some including Canada, the U.S. and Japan do they represent how the majority of the Palestinians feel?

    But with what is going on I would imagine that the majority of Palestinians would have no use for the Israelis at this point.

    When it comes right down to it if it wasn't for the government officials and what they impose on people many could live side by side and get along fine.

    They were elected so it would seem that they do.

    The Palestinians tried to live in peace with the Israelis but the Israelis are well known for their racism as well as their desire for the Palestinians' land. They have been building settlements in the occupied territories and cutting off water to Palestinian villages in order to drive the people from their land.
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  lensman67
    #16
    @ 666divine
    Good report, Lensman, as usual.

    Thanks! ;o)
  • avatar Posted Mar 4, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #17
    @ lensman67
    They were elected so it would seem that they do.

    The Palestinians tried to live in peace with the Israelis but the Israelis are well known for their racism as well as their desire for the Palestinians' land. They have been building settlements in the occupied territories and cutting off water to Palestinian villages in order to drive the people from their land.


    Cutting off water from each other goes back to Biblical times. I just don't see how this can ever end.

    Then there is the religious views that must come into play here.

    h first
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Chris V. (cgull)
    #18
    I heard they have resumed the operations again and killed a few today. Most of the arms and weapons are given to Israel for free and they are using at will.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #19
    @ Chris V. (cgull)
    I heard they have resumed the operations again and killed a few today. Most of the arms and weapons are given to Israel for free and they are using at will.


    It seems like it will be a continuing problem for who knows how long.

    I do wonder though how the religious view comes into play in the problem if it does at all.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Debra Myers (skyangel)
    #20
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    It seems like it will be a continuing problem for who knows how long.

    I do wonder though how the religious view comes into play in the problem if it does at all.


    I'm sure it does, Picasso. Give a bit and someone will clarify that for us. :)
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #21
    @ Debra Myers (skyangel)
    I'm sure it does, Picasso. Give a bit and someone will clarify that for us. :)


    With the magnitude of the problem or problems it is something that has been on my mind.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  lensman67
    #22
    @ Chris V. (cgull)
    I heard they have resumed the operations again and killed a few today. Most of the arms and weapons are given to Israel for free and they are using at will.

    They will kill a few more children and then retreat again. This policy is not only not working it is actually counter productive. It is considered a sign of insanity to keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    The Palestinians have proven that they cannot be bullied or intimidated. It is time to try something different.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Debra Myers (skyangel)
    #23
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    With the magnitude of the problem or problems it is something that has been on my mind.


    I think that religion does play into this warring, just due to the fact that these people's opposing religions/way of life/and way of thinking...do propel them forward into this war between them. Don't you think so?
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #24
    @ Debra Myers (skyangel)
    I think that religion does play into this warring, just due to the fact that these people's opposing religions/way of life/and way of thinking...do propel them forward into this war between them. Don't you think so?


    I do believe that it does Deb.

    But I also wonder how much it comes into play with those who are supporting Israel the most.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  lensman67
    #25
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    It seems like it will be a continuing problem for who knows how long.

    I do wonder though how the religious view comes into play in the problem if it does at all.

    American Evangelicals give Israel uncritical support because they see it as a fulfillment of prophecy but Orthodox Jews oppose it because they say that it is a violation of the whole concept of covenant.

    According to the Bible Israel will be rebuilt by God WHEN the people live in accord with his covenant but since more than half of all Israelis are secular it would seem that this is not the case.

    Added to that Israel cannot be rebuilt by injustice or by killing children. If if cannot be built by just means then it does not fulfill covenant and is then only a secular land grab.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Debra Myers (skyangel)
    #26
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    I do believe that it does Deb.

    But I also wonder how much it comes into play with those who are supporting Israel the most.


    That...I don't know. There he is...maybe he can answer these questions!
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #27
    @ lensman67
    American Evangelicals give Israel uncritical support because they see it as a fulfillment of prophecy but Orthodox Jews oppose it because they say that it is a violation of the whole concept of covenant.

    According to the Bible Israel will be rebuilt by God WHEN the people live in accord with his covenant but since more than half of all Israelis are secular it would seem that this is not the case.

    Added to that Israel cannot be rebuilt by injustice or by killing children. If if cannot be built by just means then it does not fulfill covenant and is then only a secular land grab.


    Many are afraid to even say that a Jew can be wrong because of a fear they will bring "God's curse" on them.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  lensman67
    #28
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    Many are afraid to even say that a Jew can be wrong because of a fear they will bring "God's curse" on them.

    Jews are not wrong! This has nothing to do with Judaism since many Jews, such as the Orthodox ones, oppose Israel. This has to do with the philosophy of Zionism which is a whole separate matter.

    No matter how hard its supporters try to pretend that Zionism equals Judaism it is a lie. Zionism equals nationalism and racism but NOT Judaism, which is a religion built on justice and tolerance.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #29
    @ lensman67
    Jews are not wrong! This has nothing to do with Judaism since many Jews, such as the Orthodox ones, oppose Israel. This has to do with the philosophy of Zionism which is a whole separate matter.

    No matter how hard its supporters try to pretend that Zionism equals Judaism it is a lie. Zionism equals nationalism and racism but NOT Judaism, which is a religion built on justice and tolerance.


    It seems like some belief systems should do some research into what is going on and to the different factions of the Jewish people.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  lensman67
    #30
    @ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    It seems like some belief systems should do some research into what is going on and to the different factions of the Jewish people.

    Very true. Your article on the separation barrier that Israel is building to cut Palestinians off from their water is a good example of quality research into what is going on.
  • avatar Posted Mar 5, 2008 by  Cynthia T. [Picasso]
    #31
    @ lensman67
    Very true. Your article on the separation barrier that Israel is building to cut Palestinians off from their water is a good example of quality research into what is going on.


    Thank you Lensman.

    There is a lot that I have learned from different writers here at DJ.
    Some of course I do not agree with but a lot of things that have made me think more about different subjects plus do some research on many subjects.
  • MEA Posted Mar 7, 2008 by  MEA
    #32
    There were three major desert religions.

    All are like headless snakes awaiting sundown so they can die; but the youngest is asserting itself against its two older siblings' secular societies.
    I am political enough to still come down on the side of Israel because of the crappy treatment it has received from western secularists--the ones who tried to salve historic affronts by providing Jews with a home in Palestine; and then pretty much walking off and leaving them to contend alone with the Arabs who were attacking them before the ink dried.
    Ask yourselves why the Jews were not provided with a homeland in former NAZI territories?--Arabs only marginally supported the NAZIs...

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