Pentagon Demands Remaining Bonus From Wounded Soldiers

That's just sick.

A contractor/parasite can make millions for non-existent services, and nobody bats an eyelid.

These guys get put through the meat grinder, and they lose money?

Somebody please say "class action".

I heard this this morning on the radio.......it was horrible!

The story reported said the pentagon was "on top of it" and that it was a computer error and they were going to be sure to fix it right away.

yea - right!

@Wanderlaugh
This really troubled me as well. I don't know if it's incompetence on the part of the government, trying to gain as much money back as they can, or maybe even a little of both. It's time common sense plays a role.

@GotTheScoop
Indeed, it is horrible. Whether or not someone agrees with the war, these men and women risk their very lives to protect us, and when the government calls it a "computer glitch", that just adds more to the insult.

Thanks to you both for commenting!

First welcome to DJ msierra I see that you are new and this is your first post.

A good one but one that makes me sick also.

My sister's grandson joined the service a few months ago and I have wondered if he is wounded, I sure pray that he won't be,
if he would still get the bonus that he had signed on for.

So many things are done that are very disturbing and just not right.

The only reason the Pentagon says this is a "mix-up" is...because they got caught.

@Picasso
That's very kind of you to notice. Thanks! Yes, it's my first post and I'm looking forward to many more.

I hope the best for your sister's grandson. I wish I knew what it would take to get the government to just do the right thing for the people they serve and not themselves.

@pajamadeen
Good call! That must be part of their employee handbook as that is an ongoing response we see these days, isn't it?

One would think that the Pentagon would be indebted to their soldiers and not the other way around.

Shoot. What difference should it make. they are already spending money that they don't have.

@ pajamadeen
The only reason the Pentagon says this is a "mix-up" is...because they got caught.

That is exactly what I thought when I heard the story.....only because it made it to the "mainstream" did they have to come up with some lame excuse as to why all of the injured are being ripped off of the money they have coming due.

Welcome to DJ, msierra, great first post. You'll be making friends for life around here, with that standard.

@666divine
It's far too lop-sided for sure.

@Picasso
Plus, they're spending money on far too many things they shouldn't.

@Wanderlaugh
Thank you so much! I'll be looking to you and others who have more experience here to learn how it's done. :)

once again the american government manages to somehow look even worse...unbelievable...it's pathetic...

welcome to DJ, msierra

Rather than further categorize our brave soldiers as victims, we should be working to change the system. The current regulatory guidance is below. After spending just under 22 years in the Army, I know how to fight the system and it is not through the press, it is through the legal process.

The Army Regulation that deals with Enlistment Bonuses is AR 601-210, Paragraph 9-9 b(1)(c) and (e). I have attached the paragraph (with my notations) that deals with the bonus. According to this regulation, paragraph b(1)(e), the Army has the option to require the repayment. The wording is “may require” with no further guidance or qualifiers listed in the paragraph. You may download the PDF version of the regulation at http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r601_210.pdf

Thank you for keeping this subject in the public view. All we need to do is to change the above regulation and the problem will be solved. Regulatory change that is not mandated by Title 10 USC is not difficult to change. If it is mandated by Title 10 USC, then the law (Title 10, US Code) must be changed by congress.

Warm Regards,
Karl Campbell
Chief Warrant Officer

US Army (retired)

Lubbock, Texas

@ Karl Campbell
Rather than further categorize our brave soldiers as victims, we should be working to change the system. The current regulatory guidance is below. After spending just under 22 years in the Army, I know how to fight the system and it is not through the press, it is through the legal process.

The Army Regulation that deals with Enlistment Bonuses is AR 601-210, Paragraph 9-9 b(1)(c) and (e). I have attached the paragraph (with my notations) that deals with the bonus. According to this regulation, paragraph b(1)(e), the Army has the option to require the repayment. The wording is “may require” with no further guidance or qualifiers listed in the paragraph. You may download the PDF version of the regulation at http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r601_210.pdf

Thank you for keeping this subject in the public view. All we need to do is to change the above regulation and the problem will be solved. Regulatory change that is not mandated by Title 10 USC is not difficult to change. If it is mandated by Title 10 USC, then the law (Title 10, US Code) must be changed by congress.

Warm Regards,
Karl Campbell
Chief Warrant Officer

US Army (retired)

Lubbock, Texas

CWO Campbell- for my education-

"may require" means a discretionary power to waiver by policy, doesn't it, or at least "not require"? Enforceable if so desired, not mandatory?

@SportsAndTheCity
Yes, they've got that down to an art form, haven't they? And thanks for the welcome!

@Karl
First, thank you for your service to this country. Second, you're welcome for keeping this in the public view. I was simply stunned when I heard this in the media. What happened to common decency? What happened to pulling one's head out of the rule book and start thinking for a change? No doubt there are a lot of knots to untie.

@ Paul Wallis (Wanderlaugh)
CWO Campbell- for my education-

"may require" means a discretionary power to waiver by policy, doesn't it, or at least "not require"? Enforceable if so desired, not mandatory?

Wanderlaugh,
The "may require" can be considered discretionary, but that would be on a case-by-case basis. To make a change in the pay system, which is where this is usually triggered, you would need a regulatory change at the service/DOD level, depending on whether the regulation was written based on Title 10 USC, etc.

When a person gets an enlistment or reenlistment bonus, there are 'switches' set in the finance and accounting system that will trigger automatic reimbursement procedures. The only way to change that once and for all is to change the regulation and thus change the way that we account for the bonus.

My point, is that fighting the wording of a regulation in the media is not going to solve the problem. Quoting the regulatory guidance in the press, to your Congressman/Senator and pressuring them to change the wording is the way to go in my opinion.

Many news reports that I have read and watched/listened to state somewhere in their article/interview that they cannot get an answer from the Army or the DOD. The answer is in the body of my first post and I will gladly email a PDF file that I have annotated with just the paragraph in question. All someone has to do is email me at chiefc@us.army.mil and I will be glad to forward it to you.

I hope that we all have a great Thanksgiving. Pray for our Troops tomorrow as you bless the food.

Karl

@ msierra
@SportsAndTheCity
Yes, they've got that down to an art form, haven't they? And thanks for the welcome!

@Karl
First, thank you for your service to this country. Second, you're welcome for keeping this in the public view. I was simply stunned when I heard this in the media. What happened to common decency? What happened to pulling one's head out of the rule book and start thinking for a change? No doubt there are a lot of knots to untie.

SportsAndTheCity,

You are welcome. It is hard to explain but each individual case just cannot be settled at the Unit Level, usually the Company; there are just too many of these to do.

This type of action just needs a change in the regulation. I agree that the Army should review the policy and change it. The amendment process for the regulation is not difficult once the skids are greased and I do believe that the press has put a lot of grease on the skids!

I hate to keep harping on changing the regulation but I lived within the Army's regulatory system for more than half of my adult life. I learned early on that the way to win in a situation like this is by pushing enough paper high enough to make someone want to change it just to shut you up sometimes!

Warrant Officers have a tendency to be a bit tenacious in places where their passion lies. Mine happens to be taking care of the troops. Theirs, sad to say is focused on getting as many soldiers back safely, picking up replacements and shuffling them back to the battlefield, it is just what the Army does.

I can guarantee based on past experience that this is not a top level decision and someone has already had their butt ripped to shreds and told to fix it. The Army is not doing this to the soldiers as a conscious policy to harm the very soldiers that are the bread and butter of our Country's US Armed Forces. This is just a stupid error that should have been fixed long before it hit the news.

I am thankful that we have a news media that is free to report the negative; many times that is the only way that we get things fixed! I sent the above message to my Congressman before I posted it here. If everyone would cut and paste it and do the same, this will be over for soldiers soon!

Thank you again for the forum.
Karl

At this point in time, something like this no longer horrifies me as far as the government goes. Anything that they can pull they will, until enough people raise the dickens about it.

Welcome, msierra!

@skyangel5402
Thank you! It's great to be here. :)

@ msierra
@skyangel5402
Thank you! It's great to be here. :)

BTW...this site is highly addictive!

Great post, I am glad they are trying to fix this problem, it would be shame if the army went through it.

@cgull
Thanks for the compliment. I, too, am glad that they're fixing it, but I also hope it spreads to everything else they do so they won't be caught with their hand in the cookie jar any more.

Ah, who am I kidding? We'll be hearing of something else I'm sure. :)

@ Karl Campbell
SportsAndTheCity,

You are welcome. It is hard to explain but each individual case just cannot be settled at the Unit Level, usually the Company; there are just too many of these to do.

This type of action just needs a change in the regulation. I agree that the Army should review the policy and change it. The amendment process for the regulation is not difficult once the skids are greased and I do believe that the press has put a lot of grease on the skids!

I hate to keep harping on changing the regulation but I lived within the Army's regulatory system for more than half of my adult life. I learned early on that the way to win in a situation like this is by pushing enough paper high enough to make someone want to change it just to shut you up sometimes!

Warrant Officers have a tendency to be a bit tenacious in places where their passion lies. Mine happens to be taking care of the troops. Theirs, sad to say is focused on getting as many soldiers back safely, picking up replacements and shuffling them back to the battlefield, it is just what the Army does.

I can guarantee based on past experience that this is not a top level decision and someone has already had their butt ripped to shreds and told to fix it. The Army is not doing this to the soldiers as a conscious policy to harm the very soldiers that are the bread and butter of our Country's US Armed Forces. This is just a stupid error that should have been fixed long before it hit the news.

I am thankful that we have a news media that is free to report the negative; many times that is the only way that we get things fixed! I sent the above message to my Congressman before I posted it here. If everyone would cut and paste it and do the same, this will be over for soldiers soon!

Thank you again for the forum.
Karl

I come from a military family and served in uniform myself and you are absolutely right. The military is all about people and by an large they do a heck of a good job by them.

I remember going home for Christmas leave after Basic at Ft Polk and having the base commander, a general, drive me and five other soldiers to the airport. All the other officers and their wive were doing the same thing because there just were not enough buses to get us all to where we needed to be on time.

That is how all of the services think but like everything that is run by humans there are going to be mistakes or a dumb pencil pusher somewhere in the chain of command who only thinks as far as the book.

Most of the time this gets sorted out rather quickly because for all their faults (and anything run by humans is going to have faults) the military is, at the bottom line, about people.

@ msierra
@cgull
Thanks for the compliment. I, too, am glad that they're fixing it, but I also hope it spreads to everything else they do so they won't be caught with their hand in the cookie jar any more.

Ah, who am I kidding? We'll be hearing of something else I'm sure. :)

Msierra - I am not sure if anyone really had their hand in the cookie jar. In the grand scheme of things, these kids fell through the cracks in a huge bureaucratic quagmire.

I just hate that they have to be paraded in front of TV cameras and made to look like poor pitiful victims. It makes my gut hurt to see these proud warriors sitting on their couch with their stumps staged for the best negative impact. Staged next to the realistically displayed US flag draped on their couch The good stories rarely get told because they are just not as marketable!

Most of the kids that I have spoken with and many that I have seen in the news say that they would go back again if they could or if they had to. I am sure that there are bitter service members out there, but from my vantage point, they are few and far between. We have a force of brave men and women who know the risks and face the challenges bravely.

There IS something to be said for our system of free press though, as many times, things such as this do not get addressed until they are brought to light and someone is made to feel really uncomfortable. Having been a member of this huge machine, I can tell you that from bottom to top, there are only a hand full of people that are really bad people; the rest do their job to the best of their ability, think about their families and hope to live another day.

As long as we have people, regardless of social status, race, creed, rank, or political party, we will have scandal; it is human nature! We as citizens are ever charged with helping to maintain the balance in all of the mess.
Karl

Karl

I really am starting to believe that this world is becoming sicker and sicker. How can anyone ask a returning wounded veteran to re-imburse anything is beyond me.

These people literally put their lives on the line to make sure we are free from terrorists and now are being asked to re-imburse.

@Kim's reading room
Well said, Kim. Clearly, a lot of us think that way, we just have to make sure our voices are heard and then maybe those who represent will finally get the message.

Thanks so much for commenting!

@ Kim,s reading room
I really am starting to believe that this world is becoming sicker and sicker. How can anyone ask a returning wounded veteran to re-imburse anything is beyond me.

These people literally put their lives on the line to make sure we are free from terrorists and now are being asked to re-imburse.

@ Kim,s reading room
I really am starting to believe that this world is becoming sicker and sicker. How can anyone ask a returning wounded veteran to re-imburse anything is beyond me.

These people literally put their lives on the line to make sure we are free from terrorists and now are being asked to re-imburse.

Kim,

Anything dealing with money is usually controlled by Title 10 USC which in turn sparks Department of Defense (DOD) regulations which drive service regulations. The finance system cannot be legally changed until the law is changed to allow the regulation to change. The way things are currently written, someone either has to make an exception to policy on a case-by-case basis or break the law. There is no single person or group of heartless people out there who are conspiring to hurt our soldiers, I would bet my retirement check on it.

Let me give you an example of how the finance system works in real life. When I became a warrant officer, they had to discharge me as an enlisted soldier and I was brought back on active duty the same day as a warrant. The discharge triggers a finance audit of every soldier, sometimes there are issues in pay that go back years.

I had been a recruiter and recruiters spend a fair amount of time on the road in what is called Temporary Duty (TDY) status. While TDY, we got a stipend to help defray the cost of meals, room costs, travel, etc. At the end of the trip we are required to file a claim to 'settle' the travel.

They found several entries from two and three years prior in my records that had not been 'settled.' Most career soldiers save tons of paper, receipts, etc. from TDY trips for just this instance. I found all of the documentation except for one trip. They were gong to charge me for the travel advance that I took and never properly closed.

I went round and round with the head of the finance division at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, making it clear that I was not going to pay the price for the finance system's inadequate ability to handle the paperwork that I KNOW I turned in but could not prove. This meant that my pay status was in limbo and each day that went by was a gap in continuity that would have to be later explained by the finance gurus. It was in the individuals concerned best interest to get this fixed now so that they could do something else important AND not have to explain later why I was not in the system within the allowed parameters of X days. Nobody likes to be told that they are wrong, bean counters included.

Their reasoning was that they could not let me 're-settle' the travel because I might have already settled the travel and because of that any further settlement action would be fraud and someone could be punished for said fraud! See the circular reasoning? I finally, after four or five days of a stalemate said "I did some thinking last night and I KNOW that I did not settle the travel and I want to settle it now." The argument continued until I finally wore the folks at the finance office down and I won. I was a bit more tenacious than these wounded vets that just want to get HOME.

Remember, the rules are the rules. Violating the rules in the finance arena will get you fired at the bare minimum if not put in jail. The bean counters trusted with accounting for the taxpayers money take their job very seriously and they do it well for the most part. If you want an exception, you must get the paperwork signed and get it back to the finance office or else, "I am sorry, it can't be done." This is not an affront against the wounded soldiers; these folks are just doing their job and until the rules change, their individual job is on the line.

Most of these injured soldiers are express processed out once they are medically released; they folks in the system try to make the process as painless as possible. MANY times, just as my travel paperwork dropped through the cracks, a proper pay audit is not done and the soldier is discharged with issues such as the unearned bonus left unattended to until the next pay cycle review in the computer.

Once discharged, a month end, quarter end or other automatic audit cycle is processed and when the soldier is shown to be discharged before their regular discharge date, a flag is tripped in the computer and a letter of collection is generated if there are any discrepancies generated. Think for a moment - I was a seasoned soldier with eleven years in the Army who knew the pay system and you see what I went through over $200.00. It was not really the $200.00, it was the audit trail that would be left if we just checked the block and closed the chapter. An audit trail discrepancy that someone would have to answer later.

Many of these soldiers that we are hearing about have from one to less than six years in the military if they are having a portion of an enlistment bonus collected. They are missing a limb, maybe more, they probably do not know the system well and they are at home in West Texas or Idaho with no knowledge of what to do. The letter is much like a letter from the IRS - what DO I do with it? They call the finance office and get no help, call the VA and get no help, Congressmen, etc. with the same frustration. They get no help because many people out there do not know the system well enough to give a definitive answer so in the absence of information, say it can't be fixed, get you off of the phone and move on to something else.

Finally, their story gets picked up by the news media and all of a sudden, the whole military system looks like a bunch of buffoons a kid gets paraded on TV looking like a helpless victim that the machine is being heartless with.

Blaming the DOD, calling them cruel, etc. solves nothing if the system; the law is broken. The law must be fixed, system changed and employees within the system must be trained to be a bit more sensitive to the situation. All of this while dodging the barbs of the press and the political process that continues to find fault with everything that they do. Any juicy tidbit that makes the system look bad will be blown out of proportion and when the truth finally DOES come out and the system is finally exonerated. That fact does not get reported or if it does, it is a back page issue - good news does not sell nor does it keep people agitated.

There is no one person that is causing this collection action to be instituted against these injured soldiers. The DOD is the largest employer in the world and there are literally thousands within the finance and accounting system trying to follow the same rules; there is no single person within this system who can change the law and turn off the switch on a system wide basis until the law and regulatory guidance is changed.

The problem is that the general public does not know this and the folks who do report this are smart enough to get to the right people to ask the right questions. There are few officers, warrant officers, or NCOs who have been in the system for more than a few years who do not know all of the information that I have given here. The right people are either not asked or they give information that is contrary to the aims of those reporting the stories and it is conveniently left out of the report.

Am I angry at the press? No ma'am! I support our freedoms and gave up a large part of my adult life (and health) defending them. I just think, as stated in previous posts, that there are better ways to handle the situation than to use our wounded vets to make the system into a giant monster rather than seeking solutions to the problem at hand.

For the record, I believe that taking care of the troops, especially our wounded, is our duty as citizens of this great country. The system must get fixed and I am confident that it is being done, but as with any bureaucracy, change will take time and those involved must wait it out until such a time that it does get rectified! Write your Congressman, your Senator and express your disdain for the way that the system is. This is the only way that we can effect change and get relief for our wonded Vets.

Remember, we all tend to demonize that which we do not understand!

I hope this helps, I look forward to continued dialog.
Karl

Bonus Repayment Update - Reply from my Congressman

December 21, 2007
Dear Mr. Campbell:

Thank you for contacting me concerning reenlistment bonuses and service connected injuries. I appreciate knowing your views.
You will be pleased to know it is current defense policy that American service members injured or killed in the line of duty do not forego their enlistment or reenlistment bonuses when those injuries or death preclude further service. Recent media reports indicated that the military has required service members to repay enlistment and reenlistment bonuses when they were unable to fulfill their commitments due to injury, but this was an error that has been corrected.
It is my understanding that Department of Defense policy with regard to enlistment and reenlistment bonuses is not only to forego any repayment but also to pay out unpaid installments when the service member is killed or injured in the line of duty. You will also be pleased to know that the Congress recently passed H.R.
3793, which clarified and reaffirmed this policy into law, guaranteeing that no wounded veteran be required to repay a bonus because of his inability to fulfill his service obligation. President Bush is expected to sign this legislation into law.
My expectation is that the Department and the military services aggressively implement this policy and that the discretion also contained in Department policy is applied to the benefit of service members. That discretion permits the military services to forego repayment when it would be "contrary to equity and good conscience."
As we celebrate the holiday season, it is important that we give thanks to our military men and women who are serving in dangerous situations. For the military services to ask a soldier to repay a signing bonus after that soldier has volunteered, served and then been seriously injured is - quite simply - wrong. These brave men and women would have served out their full commitment had they not been seriously injured and, therefore, deserve to have their reenlistment bonuses.
Again, thank you for contacting me. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I may be of service to you in the future. If you would like to receive updates of my actions in Congress, I send a weekly e-newsletter called "Randy's Roundup" to keep people up-to-date on the big issues facing Washington and West Texas. Many people have told me they enjoy learning what activities I have been up to on behalf of West Texans. Please visit the 19th District's website at www.randy.house.gov to sign up for the Roundup.




Sincerely,

Randy Neugebauer

Thank you Karl Campbell for this update.