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5 more articles on this subject:
There are huge amounts of evidence to prove the United States was founded as a Christian nation. The capitol building regularly served as a church until well after the civil war, the printing of the Aitken Bible received Congressional approval in 1782.
There is overwhelming evidence the United States was founded as a Christian country. The bold type in the quotes were added by me.
George Washington, in a speech to the Delaware Chiefs in 1779, suggested they would be happier if they converted to Christianity, and promised Congressional help to do so.
You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it.
Also in 1779, George Washington stated in his General Orders of November 27th, that Congress proclaimed a day of thanksgiving to "Almighty God" and a prayer to "spread the light of christian knowledge through the remotest corners of the earth" among other requests to the Lord.
The Congress officially "highly approved" and "recommended" the Aitken Bible in 1782 to the people of the United States.
Whereupon,
RESOLVED,
THAT the United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this Recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.
CHA. THOMSON, Sec'ry
In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
On April 20, 1816, Congress also approved relief for the Baltimore and Massachusetts Bible Societies.
The US capitol building served as church building before Congress moved into it until after the Civil War. The services in the House Hall were interdenominational, but some Sundays up to four other churches were also holding services in the Capitol. The Marine Band was part of the early church services also.
Jefferson attended church at the Capitol while he was Vice President and also throughout his presidency. The first Capitol church service that Jefferson attended as President was a service preached by Jefferson's friend, the Rev. John Leland, on January 3, 1802. Significantly, Jefferson attended that Capitol church service just two days after he penned his famous letter containing the "wall of separation between church and state" metaphor.
Many of the Founding Fathers were professed Christians. Signers of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, Governors, Revolutionary War Generals and Supreme Court Justices are all on record calling Jesus Christ their Savior.
Gary DeMar makes several relevant points in his article, Founding–Lie or Libel?
This seems to sum it up for me:
There is much more to America’s founding than the Constitution. America was not born in 1787 or even in 1776. The Constitution did not create America, America created the Constitution. The states (colonial governments) were a reality long before the Constitution was conceived, and there is no question about their being founded on Christian principles.
State Constitutions had strong religious references at the time the US Constitution was drafted. The Federal Constitution was designed only to enumerate the needed powers of the Union, without limiting the states powers. Some examples of early state constitutions:
Pennsylvania’s 1790 Constitution declared, “That no person, who acknowledges the being of God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth.”
The Constitution of Massachusetts stated that “no person shall be eligible to this office, unless . . . he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.” The following oath was also required: “I do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth.”
North Carolina’s 1868 Constitution stated that “all persons who shall deny the being of Almighty God” “shall be disqualified for office.” The 1776 constitution, that remained in effect until 1868, included the following (XXXII): “That no person, who shall deny the being of God, or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State, shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.” North Carolina describes itself as a “Christian State” in the 1868 constitution (Art. XI, sec. 7).
There are many more examples to prove my point that I could give, such as the early federal government recommending the Bible be used as a text book and George Washington mentioning the importance of religion three times in his farewell speech.
It's easy to see that the United States was started as a Christian, religious country.
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I have to give my husband credit for this post. He was outraged after reading momentsintime's uninformed post concerning the United State's Christian heritage. He has been working on this post for over a week in his almost non-existant spare time. I edited his finished work. -
Hi jaguar, nice to see you back on DJ ...
I must say, this is an excellent rebuttal and well presented argument and give your husband a big pat on the back for a job well done.
I was always of the opinion that Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of the United States and am glad that someone took the time to lay out this "evidence", as you say. Great post.
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What a fantastic post John and Jaguar.
I am so glad that he and you saw the need to take the time to research this and to show those who continually deny that the U.S. started out as a Christian nation are wrong.
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This is a greatpost. I don't think the US should be decalred a Christian state, but still it drives home how the attacks on Christianity are unmerited. Many people have no idea what the 1st Amendment even says. Not separation of Church and State, but Congress shall pass no law regarding the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. This also brings up a point on state rights. TheU.S. could never be declared a Christian state,but who says a state couldn't? And no the Supreme Court does not have that power. They can only say, reword it.
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Great post. I don't think this was founded as a Christian Nation, but I think it was founded on Christian Principles. I think our founding fathers would be outraged by how people have silenced religion in this country just because they are personally offended.
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Great post Jaguar and your husband, nicely done, welcome back. I think at that time Christian was the only religion next to native Indians. The chances are very high that United States started as a predominantly Christian country. Now there are too many religions and many are contributing so it should embrace all, otherwise it will become controversial, but suppressing religion is not the answer. If someone wants to practice faith, they should be allowed.
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Didn't our founding fathers come to America for religious FREEDOM? Hence the pilgrims went on their pilgrimage to the "new world."
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The whole "seperation of church and state" gets so misrepresented. England basically told people HOW to worship God, and the colonists didn't want anyone telling them what to do regardless. Didn't want to pay taxes without having any rights. Didn't want to read King James when if they wanted to read Aitken. It came down to taht the government wouldn't tell anyone HOW to worship. Didn't mean they came over here to be Godless and UnChristian. If religion plays so heavy an influence on our decisions that we go Christian bashing, and there were all Christians on the boats coming here, and there remained Christians for hundreds of years, I'm guessing that we were founded on Chrsitian principles and the Christian church, but with more freedom.
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Posted Aug 16, 2007 by  MDee |
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#9
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With all due respect, the concepts of religious tolerance and freedom were the basis for the founding of America just as much as any specific belief.
MDee
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Fabulously well researched, linked and documented. John needs to get his own avatar maybe, with an article like this! Kudo's to Jag for a good editing job.
I think this article, as well as the comments, said alot of what needed to be said.
Thanks for writing it. :-)
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I think all this article proves it how Christians tend to think their God is better then others and condemn others for not having the same thoughts as them. The idea that we would embody our God as the only God that should be represented in our melting pot of a society and deny others their religious freedom is very ignorant and hateful. It is the bible it's self that explains the bases of free will. So you do you and let others believe what they want. If the other person wasn't right in their ways they'll find out on judgment day as will you. We should be be ashamed of our close mindedness. Wasn't the foundation of this society built upon freedom? The only way to have true freedom is to have a society that separates the church (whatever church that maybe) from the state.
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James Madison is widely seen as the "father of the Constitution" and was absolutely opposed to ANY governmental support of religion which is why he wrote the Memorial and Remonstrance against the plan by Virginia to provide government money for religious teachers.
In the crisis of the war of 1812 a President, in order to get along with powerful factions in Congress, may sign a bill they find personally repugnant (and Madison found the Bible bill especially repugnant). This is simply politics. The article cited below shows what he really thought since he wrote it himself.
James Madison " Memorial and Remonstrance"
We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled " A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill
...Because it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entagled the question in precedents...
...Because the Bill violates the equality which ought to be the basis of every law, and which is more indispensible, in proportion as the validity or expediency of any law is more liable to be impeached...
...As the Bill violates equality by subjecting some to peculiar burdens, so it violates the same principle, by granting to others peculiar exemptions...
...Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation...
,,,It is moreover to weaken in those who profess this Religion a pious confidence in its innate excellence and the patronage of its Author; and to foster in those who still reject it, a suspicion that its friends are too conscious of its fallacies to trust it to its own merits...
...Because the establishment in question is not necessary for the support of Civil Government... What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people...-
Thank you for that Lensman67.
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Strange when ever anyone, even when it is a documented article, turns it into bashing Christians.
No way does this article say that a Christian thinks of themselves as better than anyone. This was written, I believe, as an opposing view to another post.
I am a Christian and I do not think of myself as better than ANYONE. That is my belief and I do not go around attacking other beliefs as I see Christians being attacked a lot of times on this site.
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Sigh, more hogwash from the religous right. The disconnect here is that the founders may have been religous, but they understood the dangers of forcing religion on others.
You mention the state constitutions that forced religion on their populace, but make no mention of why that language isn't still in effect.
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I think the people involved in the drafting of the Constitution were much like the people of today - a vast variety of thoughts, beliefs and ideals.
They were fleeing England, where they were being forced to practice their religion in one specific way, or else, and essentially said - "I'm outta here" and set off to begin anew.
If I have realized nothing else, I have found that Lensman has made alot of valid points regarding the separation of Church and State.
If we, as a Nation, say that we are Christian, and Christian alone, then we are once again repeating what they did in England. Also, he has pointed out that as Christians, and the current majority in this country, we feel pretty secure in fighting to keep our Christian symbols on Government buildings, etc. but suppose we suddenly weren't the majority? Would we be OK with, let's just say the Muslims for sake of conversation, replacing the crosses and 10 commandment tablets with symbols and scripture from the Koran? I doubt it.
The problem is, the Christians have had pretty much free rein, being the majority for 100's of years. Now, as our society becomes much more diversified, those whom take offense are raising their voices, and since so many in politics are NOT Christians themselves, and are in positions of authority in the Government, they are doing everything they can to rid the Government of Religious symbolism.
Someone in this post stated that we were founded on Christian "Principles" which I wholeheartedly agree with.
But let's face it - if I were not a Christian I would probably be irritated by those that were trying to force me to think the way they do.
The most important thing we need to preserve are our "principles" as far as Government is concerned - moral and otherwise. You don't have to be Religious to be moral do you?
Hopefully my fellow Christians will not see this comment as some sort of retreat from my Religious beliefs, because it is not. I just have realized that we have to be careful because if the pendulum suddenly started swinging in a different direction, we might find out what it would be like to be the minority - and I don't think it would be too great.
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@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
Strange when ever anyone, even when it is a documented article, turns it into bashing Christians.
No way does this article say that a Christian thinks of themselves as better than anyone. This was written, I believe, as an opposing view to another post.
I am a Christian and I do not think of myself as better than ANYONE. That is my belief and I do not go around attacking other beliefs as I see Christians being attacked a lot of times on this site.
I'm sorry if you felt I was "bashing" your stance. I myself have Christian tendencies but feel that religion is man made, deceitful, and more of a tradition then anything.
The article above did however donate a "My church is better then yours" vibe.
IE: "The Constitution of Massachusetts stated that “no person shall be eligible to this office, unless . . . he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.” The following oath was also required: “I do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth.”
You said that you felt that this article didn't show in any way that Christians think their better then others. Well I think making sure you are a "believer" is pretty blatant way of say my way or the hwy. Do you disagree to that? -
@ Pamela Jean (GotTheScoop)
I think the people involved in the drafting of the Constitution were much like the people of today - a vast variety of thoughts, beliefs and ideals.
They were fleeing England, where they were being forced to practice their religion in one specific way, or else, and essentially said - "I'm outta here" and set off to begin anew.
If I have realized nothing else, I have found that Lensman has made alot of valid points regarding the separation of Church and State.
If we, as a Nation, say that we are Christian, and Christian alone, then we are once again repeating what they did in England. Also, he has pointed out that as Christians, and the current majority in this country, we feel pretty secure in fighting to keep our Christian symbols on Government buildings, etc. but suppose we suddenly weren't the majority? Would we be OK with, let's just say the Muslims for sake of conversation, replacing the crosses and 10 commandment tablets with symbols and scripture from the Koran? I doubt it.
The problem is, the Christians have had pretty much free rein, being the majority for 100's of years. Now, as our society becomes much more diversified, those whom take offense are raising their voices, and since so many in politics are NOT Christians themselves, and are in positions of authority in the Government, they are doing everything they can to rid the Government of Religious symbolism.
Someone in this post stated that we were founded on Christian "Principles" which I wholeheartedly agree with.
But let's face it - if I were not a Christian I would probably be irritated by those that were trying to force me to think the way they do.
The most important thing we need to preserve are our "principles" as far as Government is concerned - moral and otherwise. You don't have to be Religious to be moral do you?
Hopefully my fellow Christians will not see this comment as some sort of retreat from my Religious beliefs, because it is not. I just have realized that we have to be careful because if the pendulum suddenly started swinging in a different direction, we might find out what it would be like to be the minority - and I don't think it would be too great.
Bravo! Beautifully put.
I live in a neighborhood where Christians are fast becoming a minority. At a recent city council meeting someone suggested starting with a prayer--a Buddhist prayer since there is not one single solitary Christian, from the mayor on down, in the town government.
Fortunately these new Americans (none were born in this country) having had to take a Civics exam to become citizens, had a better grasp of American principals than most people who are born here. They voted the idea down the same way that the Continental Congress voted down Benjamin Franklin's suggestion that they start their meetings with a prayer. In fact the mayor cites that example! -
The Constitution of Massachusetts stated that “no person shall be eligible to this office, unless . . . he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.” The following oath was also required: “I do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth.”
It was PERCICLY in order to overturn such laws that the Founding Fathers forbad religious tests in the very body of the Constitution
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
US Constitution: Article VI, section 3
Let us not forget that Massachusetts was the Colony that outlawed Christmas! -
This will have to be my last comment as I have bought a much needed new computer and someone is coming out in about an hour to set it up.
Lensman I have not had time to read what you have written but will later. You did point out to me once what GTS has just written. I do agree with what you both said on that matter.
BostonBekki I am not sure I understand this statement "You said that you felt that this article didn't show in any way that Christians think their better then others. Well I think making sure you are a "believer" is pretty blatant way of say my way or the hwy. Do you disagree to that?
But once again I shouldn't even be on the computer so have not read it carefully or thought about it.
This statement I took as Christian bashing "I think all this article proves it how Christians tend to think their God is better then others and condemn others for not having the same thoughts as them."
OK my quick two cents worth but I still think that most are missing the real reason this article was written. -
@ BostonBekki
You said that you felt that this article didn't show in any way that Christians think their better then others. Well I think making sure you are a "believer" is pretty blatant way of say my way or the hwy. Do you disagree to that?
I disagree for one simple reason: God will decide in the end. I can't think any less of you if you don't believe as how I believe. My beliefs were guided by Christian teachings. When I was "forced " to go to church, I only believed out of fear of reprival from my parents. When I finally came back to BASIC Christianity 15 years later, I still found religion in general to be full of crap, but the basic Christian principles were very real. Religion, to me, is a "do it how this church does it or God won't approve" mentality. If you worship God based on church activities, I think you'll find yourself misguided. That goes for every religion. But if you use a church to help shape, educate and strengthen your relationship with God, you will be just fine.
That being said, it can be in no basic Christian's heart to judge. I became a member of my non-denominational church one year after attending. We went to the meeting and they basically stated their doctrine as this:
"We believe that Christ is the Son of God. We believe that he died for our sins. Our church wants us to create more disciples of God, to go out and spread the good word. The Bible has all the answers to your questions.
"We aren't milleniumists, adventists, etc. If that's what gets you closer to God, then so be it, but we don't preach any of that in our church.
Boston Bekki, maybe you've had many experiences like I've had with Christians who honestly thought they were doing God's work by trying to judge you into Christianity. It doesn't work, no more for the handful of Muslims that want their fellow Muslims to war against the West by using violence. People mean well, just as our founding fathers did. But it doesn't mean that when someone says "I'm a Christian and our country was found on Christian principles" that they are better than you. It just is what it is. -
Hey kids!
Since today seems to be devoted to fighting over religion I have an idea! Why don't we fight over sports instead? They are almost like a religion and not as many people get their feelings hurt.
"Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?"
Rodney King -
Since you decided to attack my article I feel I am right in defending it. Every single quote was documented to the actual document that it was taken from.
The First Amendment does not say only if you are a Christian do these rights apply.
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The First Amendment gives all religions the right to be part of the United States.
The First Amendment has protected persons of all faiths in the United States. When a person's religion prohibits involvement of an armed conflict it's that Amendment that is ruled upon.
The next two quotes are on this page.
Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
John Adams, the second President was a lawyer although his family wanted him to go into the clergy.
Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
Those quotes said the fact is either side can swing quotes back and forth all day long. In the end it's a bunch of he saids, she saids. The founding fathers may have had some Christian influence but at the same time that is not to say that all the founding fathers were of the Christian faith. Their families background yes, but some of them opted for other teachings and other beliefs.
The United States has always claimed to have religious tolerance. Has that founding belief gone so far away that it's no longer in place? If something is said that doesn't support that the Church was behind the documents of the government is it Christian bashing or simply coming to the truth of the matter. The government was not set up to be a religious instrument. It is for the people and by the people. Not only for the Christian people and by the Christian people. All people have a stake in the documents and governmental beliefs that stated the country. Not just the ones who belief in their faith. -
I think part of the problem is that the political figures these days are all just so busy pandering to the masses that they are making the situation even worse.
Since the Christians are still considered to be in the "majority" in the US, the folks running for office, especially now those running for President, try to make sure to stick alot of God quotes and "Christian beliefs" into all of their speeches. They figure this will warm the hearts of the masses, and garner them votes.
On the one hand, they argue and fight and say "Hey, separation of Church and State", fight in Congress to have all of the religious symbols and monuments removed from public buildings, but they are total hypocrites and espouse their "Christian faith" whenever they get the chance.
It is hard for Christian's to watch the government systematically remove the religious symbols that have for so long been displayed in public buildings, but I can see the point. I guess the pendulum had swung way off to the right, and now has swung way off to the left. Hopefully it will land somewhere in the land of "neutral", and the principle's this country was founded on, namely FREEDOM OF RELIGION will remain intact.
I don't want anyone forcing me to be a Muslim, Jew or Buddhist, nor do I agree that our government has the right to force anyone to practice or believe in Christianity.
I also don't think that the Bible should be taught in public schools. I used to think, yes, that would be only fair, but I really, after thinking about it further, think that it is up to the Christian parents to teach their children scripture. That and the Church. If we allow public school teachers, many who are NOT Christians, to start teaching the Bible in public schools, well you can only imagine what could happen, and how things could be twisted and misconstrued.
Suppose Phree was a public school teacher, and was now told he HAD to teach the Bible, along with the theory of Evolution? Can you only imagine what his class would consist of?! LOL!!
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GTS
I have to say i agree with you last comment. It's not Christian Bashing to state what the original governmental documents that started the United States were about. Those documents protect all religions and those who do not believe at the same time.
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Well, I'm sorry Moments - but it becomes "Christian Bashing" when you take a subject which is a source of pain and upset for a large majority of US citizens, namely the stripping of their Christian symbolism that has stood for centuries, and then attempt to further rub their collective faces in it by writing an article that states boldly "The United States Was Not Started As A Christian Country".....by using those specific words in a title, it is directly poking sticks, for lack of better terminology, at a large group of people that are afraid and confused and upset by the fact that what they have grown up with, lived with for most of their adult lives is now systematically being stripped from them. I was offended by your article - and told you so. I believe you were trying to make a point, a point AGAINST Christians in writing it.
You could have easily found a different, less offensive title, and then shared the information you had found regarding the founding fathers and their religious positions, and let the reader draw their own conclusions - but you did not do that.
So, since you chose to incite riot in the hearts of those that hold their Christian faith in high regard, and feel threatened by what is occurring all around them, you can't be surprised that someone chose to write an opposing point of view now can you?
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@ Pamela Jean (GotTheScoop)
Well, I'm sorry Moments - but it becomes "Christian Bashing" when you take a subject which is a source of pain and upset for a large majority of US citizens, namely the stripping of their Christian symbolism that has stood for centuries, and then attempt to further rub their collective faces in it by writing an article that states boldly "The United States Was Not Started As A Christian Country".....by using those specific words in a title, it is directly poking sticks, for lack of better terminology, at a large group of people that are afraid and confused and upset by the fact that what they have grown up with, lived with for most of their adult lives is now systematically being stripped from them. I was offended by your article - and told you so. I believe you were trying to make a point, a point AGAINST Christians in writing it.
You could have easily found a different, less offensive title, and then shared the information you had found regarding the founding fathers and their religious positions, and let the reader draw their own conclusions - but you did not do that.
So, since you chose to incite riot in the hearts of those that hold their Christian faith in high regard, and feel threatened by what is occurring all around them, you can't be surprised that someone chose to write an opposing point of view now can you?
Actually I like the fact that an opposing view was written. What I didn't like was saying that I didn't document. I made sure that every quote had the actual text it was from on it. That was my only issue.
The great thing about one opinion is it can lead to several opinions and more knowledge gets out there. I also wrote an article that showed that almost all of the beginning colonists were Christian.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/216838/Why_Did_They_Come_
The purpose of my article was to show that perhaps the country was not simply a Christian entity. That the founding fathers were not all on the same page nor same religious beliefs.
Does that make the country any less great? Any less important? Or because of the tolerance of different religions does it make it a more powerful nation that honestly was founded on the rights of the people? -
Don't worry everyone, Christianity will be gone within 50 years. Then you can all be phree again!!!!!
:)
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@ phree
Don't worry everyone, Christianity will be gone within 50 years. Then you can all be phree again!!!!!
:)
Phree, it's statements like that that frighten those of us that practice a religion. Militant folks like yourself that are on a mission to take away our freedom to practice what we believe, alongside people like you that don't. -
momentsintime,
I wrote this article to refute the statements in your post I had problems with.
The United States Was Not Started As A Christian Country
I'm not sure your post makes the same argument as the title.
Maybe
"Not Every Founding Father Was A Christian And Christianity Is Not The Official Religion Of The Federal Government"
would have worked better.
Regarding George Washington:
In his speeches as President he never brought religion in.
It's fitting that in his farewell address liberty is mentioned fifteen times. God nor Jesus were mentioned.
"Jesus and God" is being VERY Selective-he did mention religion three times in his farewell address-which you said he never brought in to his speeches.
We can continue to search for an early religious founding father. Not until 1829 when Andrew Jackson became President did the White House have a religious man residing in it.
I believe I proved that to be untrue. I was able to show that many of the founding fathers were Christian. Washington, the first president, was definitely religious and had made public statements recommending Christianity.
Church and state were separate entities during that time period.
Washington promised Congressional help to the Delaware Chiefs to convert to Christianity.
The Congress officially "highly approved" and "recommended" the Aitken Bible in
1782 to the people of the United States.
In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the
Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
On April 20, 1816, Congress also approved relief for the Baltimore and Massachusetts Bible Societies.
The US capitol building served as church building, and the Marine Band was part of the early church services.
I do agree with this statement.
Religious freedom is quickly going into the hamper.
I am thinking of borrowing it as a title to a new post (with your permission).
Mr Jaguar -
@ Pamela Jean (GotTheScoop)
Phree, it's statements like that that frighten those of us that practice a religion. Militant folks like yourself that are on a mission to take away our freedom to practice what we believe, alongside people like you that don't.
Excuse me but isn't it Christians who travel all around the world preaching the Bible to people to get them join their "great religion"?
Am I not FREE to attempt to convert people as well?
Isn't it Christians that tell everyone else that Christ is the TRUTH (lie) and that if you don't BELIEVE in him you will burn in hell?
I, on the other hand have NOTHING EVIL in my beliefs. I don't try to scare the shit out of children (like the bible does).
You call me Militant?? NO ATHEIST I KNOW HAS KILLED FOR GOD!-
Here are some other quotes;
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
What is it men cannot be made to believe!
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
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@ phree
Excuse me but isn't it Christians who travel all around the world preaching the Bible to people to get them join their "great religion"?
Am I not FREE to attempt to convert people as well?
Isn't it Christians that tell everyone else that Christ is the TRUTH (lie) and that if you don't BELIEVE in him you will burn in hell?
I, on the other hand have NOTHING EVIL in my beliefs. I don't try to scare the shit out of children (like the bible does).
You call me Militant?? NO ATHEIST I KNOW HAS KILLED FOR GOD!
No abut they have killed for all sorts of other stupid things. You seem to do a heck of a lot more proletyzing than most Fundamentalist I know and don't do it very well. You are actually doing harm to your cause by your almost frantic fanaticism. -
BTW EVERYONE;
FEMA is training the clergy right now on how to quell dissent in the event that Martial Law is imposed.
A great reason to STOP going to CHURCH!
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@ lensman67
No abut they have killed for all sorts of other stupid things. You seem to do a heck of a lot more proletyzing than most Fundamentalist I know and don't do it very well. You are actually doing harm to your cause by your almost frantic fanaticism.
There ya go with the Fundamentalist BULLSHIT again. IT doesn't apply to me--I told ya already. Find another cheap insult to throw at me, sir. -
@ phree
There ya go with the Fundamentalist BULLSHIT again. IT doesn't apply to me--I told ya already. Find another cheap insult to throw at me, sir.
I am sorry if it seems like an insult because it is not intended as one. It is simply a sad observation. I have seldom seen anyone, aside from Fundamentalist, get so obsessively worked up over something. -
Thats cool lens.
An it harm none, do as thou wilt
But you have to understand two things;
1. You have to believe in god to be a Fundamentalist
2. I don't get worked up until after people attempt to shut me up, and deny my right to express my opinions or beliefs
I mean really, look at what I said in this thread,
@ phree
Don't worry everyone, Christianity will be gone within 50 years. Then you can all be phree again!!!!!
:)
Is that such a bad thing to say? I was merely making an observation and a prediction based on the FACTS that Christianity has been losing its numbers, especially in Europe.
It is my opinion ( and Tomas Jeffersons ) that we would be better off without organized religions.
I will continue to express my thoughts on religions no matter what.
Get used to it people! -
It's interesting to see all the varied thoughts and opinions regarding any posts that mention religion. Although I am not into debating religion with anyone, it has given me food for thought after reading all of these posts and the comments that follow.
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@ phree
Thats cool lens.
Is that such a bad thing to say? I was merely making an observation and a prediction based on the FACTS that Christianity has been losing its numbers, especially in Europe.
It is my opinion ( and Tomas Jeffersons ) that we would be better off without organized religions.
I will continue to express my thoughts on religions no matter what.
Get used to it people!
While it is true that Christianity has been in decline in Europe for generations it has been growing in power in the US in the same period. What those who try to pretend that the US was started as a Christian country fail to grasp is that the history of Christianity it this country has been one of expansion--not contraction. From roughly 17% in 1776 to around 70% today is hardly the trend factor of a dying religion.
On the other hand the trend factor for secular beliefs has been in the opposite direction. While virtually none of the important Founding Fathers was Christian, today virtually all politicians at least try to pretend that they are.
On the Fundamentalist business. In the spirit of Jeff Foxworthy's "You Just Might be a Redneck if..." I offer a few warning signs to all and sundry of the onset of Fundamentalist atheism. You might be a Fundamentalist Atheist if:
Although you've memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn't exist, you still think you're God's gift to the ignorant masses.
You call a view held by less than ten percent of the American public "common sense".
You say that there is no God and that those who believe in God do so in blind faith, yet your claim that there is no God also rests on blind faith.
You complain when Christians appeal to their emotions when justifying their belief in God yet you feel justified on appealing to your emotions for lack of belief in God.
While you don't believe in God, you feel justified on bashing God or attacking those who believe in something that you KNOW doesn't exist, fighting against or even discussing about a non-existent being are the symptoms of mental illness!
You get apoplectic about being called a Fundy Atheist for believing all those self-evidently true propositions above. And you label all theists as "fundies".
I try to be even handed. I am not too keen on those who believe that they have the right or responsibility to ram their beliefs on such topics as abortion or pornography down other people's throats and by the same token I wonder about anyone who needs to jump onto any and all threads that even vaguely alludes to God with the same shop worn and fanatical rant each and every time. -
Like I said before,
I'M only an Atheist when it comes to the Christian version of god. I'm of the opinion that the HOLY BIBLE is BULLSHIT.
For any other religion to which I have NO KNOWLEDGE, I am Agnostic.
You can complain about my rants and suggest they are fanatical, but they are based on logic, reason, and science.
I NEVER start off ranting...that comes AFTER I GET ATTACKED! I'm sticking up for my beliefs and you are suggesting I don't.
Everyone;
If you don't want to see my opinions on Christianity, then don't write a story about it.
If I see a story about it I will surely "weigh in".
I will not be silenced.
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BTW lens,
A lot of "so called" Christians are actually non-believers...but you already knew that. That 70% is more likely to be 40-50%. Some have even suggested around 30%. You cannot tell me Atheism isn't growing these days. That means something is not growing, and it certainly isn't Islamic beliefs.
You see what happens to me on DJ. It is no wonder most keep their mouths shut. But not anymore, we are fighting BACK. Thats right... BACK.
At least I have the testicular fortitude to stand up, and admit my beliefs, rather than hide them from everyone. :)
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@ phree
Like I said before,
I'M only an Atheist when it comes to the Christian version of god. I'm of the opinion that the HOLY BIBLE is BULLSHIT.
For any other religion to which I have NO KNOWLEDGE, I am Agnostic.
You can complain about my rants and suggest they are fanatical, but they are based on logic, reason, and science.
I NEVER start off ranting...that comes AFTER I GET ATTACKED! I'm sticking up for my beliefs and you are suggesting I don't.
Everyone;
If you don't want to see my opinions on Christianity, then don't write a story about it.
If I see a story about it I will surely "weigh in".
I will not be silenced.
Right. Bullshit is a widely accepted term in scientific discussions now is it?
Just as there are "salad bar Christians" who pick and choose what they are going to believe about the Bible there are "salad bar Atheists" who can cite all the "naughty bits" and think that they have summed up the entire work.
For someone who so readily takes some really off the wall conspiracy theories on "faith" (your arguments in support do not come up to even the basic standard of scientific "proof") you sure are intolerant of faith in others.
Tell me this. Provided religious people could be persuaded to not intrude their religion into your life, would you be willing to not intrude your atheism into theirs? Or would you still feel the NEED to proselytize? -
@ lensman67
Right. Bullshit is a widely accepted term in scientific discussions now is it?
Just as there are "salad bar Christians" who pick and choose what they are going to believe about the Bible there are "salad bar Atheists" who can cite all the "naughty bits" and think that they have summed up the entire work.
For someone who so readily takes some really off the wall conspiracy theories on "faith" (your arguments in support do not come up to even the basic standard of scientific "proof") you sure are intolerant of faith in others.
Tell me this. Provided religious people could be persuaded to not intrude their religion into your life, would you be willing to not intrude your atheism into theirs? Or would you still feel the NEED to proselytize?
Bullshit is widely understood to mean, completely untrue. I am certain that if you say that word to a scientist he/ will immediately understand what you're saying. So go ask a scientist, not me!
What you call "naughty bits", I call insane stories of MURDER, RAPE, and CHILD SACRIFICES! I guess you and I are just different.
What conspiracy do I take on faith? Huh? This is a bold LIE! I didn't think you would lower yourself to complete fabrication, added to your insistence on circulatory argument and ad hominem attacks.
You wanna talk about proof...but YOU RUN FROM ME every single time I present it.
I'll give you a head start....start running .....now! GO. -
Hi Jaguar are you gonna split the money from this article with your husband :). I wish there was some religion in school, so we won't have bullying, shootings and stuff like that, at least who is whoever is willing to say their prayers should be allowed to do so.
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Hi cgull, I've pretty much just stayed off John's post, but I saw your comment & thought, well, hmmmm, maybe I'll buy him dinner! Um, with the tiny amount of money he made I could buy him a couple things on the dollar menu at Burger King or Wendy's!
LOL
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@ jaguar
Hi cgull, I've pretty much just stayed off John's post, but I saw your comment & thought, well, hmmmm, maybe I'll buy him dinner! Um, with the tiny amount of money he made I could buy him a couple things on the dollar menu at Burger King or Wendy's!
LOL That will be romantic :) I read an article about a couple met at a Burger shop, sweet story. -
Aw,cgull,that has got to be one of the best, sweetest love stories I've ever read!!! Thank you so much for sharing this!
((hugs))
:)
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The title and entire thesis of this piece is an OVERSTATEMENT of facts. I hereby request that the staff of DJ do their duty and fire this writer. Since rules are applied retroactively this should be no problem.
If you are worried about DJ's image you might consider how it looks when the staff cannot admit that they over reacted.
-
In an effort to boost the credibility of citizen journalists and Digital Journal as a voice in the industry, we are implementing a strict policy on accuracy, reporting facts and standards for research.
Since this article fails on accuracy, reporting of facts and standards of research I request that the author be fired. -
I will disagree with you on this one lensman I believe the writer and her husband did prove their point the way they saw it.
I also do agree with them.
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