Biblical scholar says Jehovah's Witnesses wrong about blood transfusions

This is so funny how desperate Stuart is now. He has posted my home telephone number. So what Stuart?? Now you know I was an elder too. Since you accused me of lying earlier.

This folks is a JW that has just been whipped, and what he does afterwards. Resorting to some kind of desperate attempts like this above.

Poor poor Stuart.

Strike three Stuart.... you're OUT!!

: )

This is so funny how desperate Stuart is now. He has posted my home telephone number. So what Stuart?? Now you know I was an elder too. Since you accused me of lying earlier.

This folks is a JW that has just been whipped, and what he does afterwards. Resorting to some kind of desperate attempts like this above.

Poor poor Stuart.

Strike three Stuart.... you're OUT!!

: )

Stuart, this was a very sick thing for you to pull on here. What the heck is WRONG with you?! You are really sick & in need of help! Very nasty & evil thing to do. Shame on you!
Vinny, I am sorry to see this happen to you & I hope you will quickly change your phone number to unlisted. Keep your chin up, Vinny.
I do think this needs to stop though. There's no sense in "throwing pearls before swine". Shake it off & move on to helping others who will appreciate your words of wisdom in their lives.

If DJ could just delete what Stuart did, it would be best! And then please delete mine as well since I just quoted that info that should NEVER have been posted! So sorry!

Ok, actually, I just realized I could hurry & delete Stuart's quote from my comment within the 5 minute time frame. Now if only Chris or Alex would completely delete Stuart's terrible posting of Vinny's personal info!

Thanks Jaguar. I am headed out for a few hours. We will see what happens when I get back.

Stuart is a JW folks. He cannot even defend his faith. And then resorts to personal stuff. Just look above.

Aloha!

This below was sent to me by Stuart moments ago. What a total loser.

Sorry you had to see all of this folks. But this is from a current JW too!

Just keep that in mind.

His e-mail:
Vinny I know you have nothing to hide so I know you wont mind me sending your clients all that you had to say here. sent Marjie Wallace sent Tonia & Jeff Shroyer, sent Barbara and Rod le, sent Tamara, sent Nanor, sent SABRINA , sent Marzia, Shari sent, Your right the net is a great thing!

To reply to Stuart:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/user/3270/profile



Digital Journal Staff
http://www.digitaljournal.com/

Stuart: You are out of line. If you want to stick to a debate that is one thing, but posting personal information is not allowed on this site.

How would you like it if your email address and name was posted up?

Play fair, or don't play at all.

@ Chris Hogg:
Stuart: You are out of line. If you want to stick to a debate that is one thing, but posting personal information is not allowed on this site.

How would you like it if your email address and name was posted up?

Play fair, or don't play at all.

Stuart do you think you are above how things are to be done on DJ? If I would have ever even have considered becoming a JW what I have read on here by you would make me stay as far away from one as I could. You should be banned from DJ since you once again have posted personal information about Vinny. I see you Stuart as a hate filled vengeful person from the things you have done on this site
Beautiful pictures Vinny maybe we can see more of your work.

Any body that wants can read your comments even though you are voted down. You should take a deep breath stand back and look how you have come across as a JW. If you think it is unfair here to you then why don't you bow out. Or at least stop saying the same things over and over and over etc etc---. And you have certainly crossed the line by giving someone's personal information here. You show yourself to be mean spirited and vengeful.

Picasso, thank you for fighting the good fight with this nasty little man who is so filled with vitriol and he obvioulsy can't even see straight.

Way to go, picasso.

I have Stuart's real name and e-mail. I see his blogs all over the web after doing a google search. I know where he lives. I could even get him in trouble if I wanted to. Yet, I still do not feel it's appropriate to post that information here, or go to that extent to beat down the sore loser that he has become. Even though he has done the very same thing to me, about me, twice now, and on both threads. What's the point in doing that Stuart? What does such childish behavior accomplish. Well, I will tell you exactly what it accomplishes.

By reading this thread, people see all they need to see, as has already been mentioned.

The issues/questions were not addressed by Stuart. Why does your religion label and shun sincere Christians that simply walk away from the faith? It's all in writing, posted by YOU. Why does it shun any that personally decide to accept a blood transfusion rather than death? Life IS precious. Must these innocent children die for such a mis-application of scripture? Must mothers, fathers, sons and daughters along with friends and relatives DIE, needlessly like this for an organization that has already made numerous mistakes on past medical issues?

What do all of those mistakes and false predictions do for the credibility of the organization responsible for such writings? In simple terms, it destroys any credibility in my opinion, and in the opinion of many.

And when a confessed active JW member, as Stuart is, cannot address the ISSUES themselves, look at how they then respond. By posting personal information throughout the threads as some kind of "payback" attempt. Stuart lost the factual debate, so he then decided to make it personal. This is even more embarrassing to watch happening Stuart. I am humiliated FOR YOU, to be honest. Losing the debate is bad enough, but to then sink to such depths as you have is just plain juvenile and obviously a pride/arrogance issue.

As Picasso and others have said,

"I would have ever even have considered becoming a JW what I have read on here by you would make me stay as far away from one as I could. You should be banned from DJ since you once again have posted personal information about Vinny. I see you Stuart as a hate filled vengeful person from the things you have done on this site
Beautiful pictures Vinny maybe we can see more of your work."


This is what happens Stuart when you act as you have in print, for all to see. And this is supposed to be from a representative of the one true faith on earth??

The Jehovah's Witness religion has good, moral people within their ranks. I was an almost 20 year member including the three years I studied before baptism. Not all are as egotistical, slanderous and as dirty as Stuart has been here. But there are good, moral, spiritual people in ALL faiths, all over the world for that matter. The JW's ARE DEFINITELY NOT, the only True Religion on the earth today. Their mistake filled, error ridden, false-prediction past simply makes that claim IMPOSSIBLE! Facts that Stuart has simply chosen to bypass and instead resort to more copy and paste, copy and paste, waste of everybody's time WT Society articles. The very same WT Society that has that long list of disasters already posted. JW's do not have the inside track on everlasting life. Their mistaken view of being the only True Christians is arrogant and extremely presumptuous. Qualities that are the very opposite of what Christ was all about.

I have used my real name here and included my personal e-mail on the first thread right in the beginning. I have nothing to hide. I have posted the specific reasons why I believe the JW blood policy is wrong. And at times literally dead-wrong. I have replied to Stuart's/Dell's specific posts directly, providing logical, scriptural rebuttals. I have listed the many reasons why I believe JW's cannot be the sole truth on earth due to so many erroneous teachings in the past as well as current policies today; and listed many of those right here for all to read.

I replied to Stuart's cut and paste: "Why JW's shun those that walk away from the JW faith", without any reply from Stuart aside from his posting my own personal info.

There is nothing else I can do or say here. Let the reader be the judge then. I do not need the final word to move forward. This will be my last post. What I have presented is from my own mind, my own research and are my OWN conclusions. I walked away from the WT Society due to having a crisis of conscience in regards to the blood issue and other similar issues that I eventually came to learn about. The penalty has been steep. I am shunned by all JW's. I lost my JW business partner within one week. We lost several JW employees immediately. I cannot see my stepson or one year old grandson at all. I am labeled as some un-Godly apostate person by all JW's today. I've lost the many friendships that were built up during over a period equaling almost half of my life.

Yet I am also now free from a controlling, dogmatic, self-righteous, Religious Institution. I no longer have to submit to the numerous rules and regulations which are thrust upon all Jehovah's Witnesses at the very real, ever present threat of expulsion. One cannot even disagree verbally with even one current WT teaching without repercussions. I now worship God through his son exclusively. No WT mediator needed any longer. I am happier now, despite these consequences thrust upon me, than ever before. Liberation has real meaning now. I value true religious freedom today. I do believe in God and I am a Christian today. Not perfect by any means, but I do the best I can.

As many of you now know I am a landscape photographer, known internationally. I enjoy what I do. I love working in and being surrounded by the beauty that surrounds. Life has tremendous value and purpose.

I will be fine.

Feel free to send a private e-mail anytime: vince@hawaiianphotos.net

I wish you all the best!

A hui hou,

Vince

Stuart, I’m appalled at what you’ve done! This isn't the way a Christian acts. Vinny may have ridden you hard, but he didnt do anything to injur you but here you are, deliberately setting him up for economic ruin. Why? 'Cause you lost an argument? 'Cause he was sharing personal knowledge of Watchtower teachings? Were you angry that he made so many disillusioning statments quoting the Watchtower? Because he walked out on a religion he came to see as false? Is this hateful behavior something you learn at the Kingdom Hall? Is this response what anyone who leaves the organization should expect from the brothers?

Whatever the reasons that led you to do this mean thing, it does not speak well of either you or your religion. (Actually, It reminds me of Cain’s plan to murder his brother!) One Christian to another, I hope you decide to repent and make amends to Vinny for doing this. Stu, I want to believe you are a good man who just lost it momentarily. Please do what you can to straighten this out.

Vinny, they say that it’s an ill wind that doesn’t blow some good”. I went to the link Stuart provided and was awestruck by your fabulous photographs. “Sea Cave” is my new wallpaper.

I could hardly take my eyes off of the incredible clouded vista of “Haleakala”—a view I’d never seen before.

The sight of “Enchanted Seas” made my stomach drop like a stone. I could hear the sickening scrape of our sailboat being gouged by a just-below-the-surface coralhead all over again. OUCH!

I can’t wait for my husband to see your work.

Vinny, Stuart hasn’t responded to any of my last five or so posts (maybe I’ve been lucky), so I’ll ask you as a former elder? Is the ugly way he treated you Watchtower policy for dealing with those who leave their organization? (As in Disfellowshipped or disassociated.), MJ

Hi MJ,

Many thanks for the very nice compliments. Those are three of my newest images you mentioned. I believe I have enjoyed taking them as much as you expressed liking them. It's hard not to find some nice scenery out here in the middle of the Pacific!

Here is the link to my website:

www.hawaiianphotos.net

You asked:..."so I’ll ask you as a former elder? Is the ugly way he treated you Watchtower policy for dealing with those who leave their organization? (As in Disfellowshipped or disassociated.), MJ"


****That can be a difficult question to answer. I HAVE been labeled by the organization as an apostate for just walking away. The WT organization does demand complete shunning too, which is being done. Losing our employees and business partner were definite blows, as is not seeing my stepson and grandson at times very difficult.

One week after I turned in my letter, there was a local needs talk about "dangerous apostates" and a warning not to even talk with them or read their letter/e-mails or any other communication. It really can hurt, though because I have done nothing wrong, yet it can also make one angry and at times even bitter. I do have to keep fighting this tendency. My good name and reputation have been reduced to almost zero as well. Friendships are gone too... Just like that.

Individually, nobody has acted like Stuart here though, in going out of his way to attack me personally. He has threatened to contact what he believes are friends or business acquaintances as well. He has acted like a spoiled child in my opinion, unlike any individual Witness on this island has. At least not yet. They are mostly following orders and usually just ignore me altogether. I sincerely view most Witnesses as simply victims as was I for nearly 20 years. Though when you walk right into a former friend it can be uncomfortable for both sides now. I am getting used to it, they are not. Also, I have given many talks in each of the eight congregations on this island; so, MANY people know me well wherever I go.

So the answer is both a yes and no. Yes in that the organization has really hurt my business, name and reputation as well as the forced shunning without due cause. Not really in that most Witnesses simply ignore me rather than take some kind of juvenile action against me as Stuart has attempted.

I just received another cut and paste job privately this evening from him. Nothing else was said. : )

I hope this helps.

Thanks again for the nice thoughts.

My very best to you and yours,

Vince

Thanks Vinny, for your sensitive response. With just a few word pictures you've taken my breath away.

You said you were "labeled an apostate". I have too look "apostate" up to be sure I knew what you were talking about because by their reaction it seemed so...dirty.

a•pos•tate (n): One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.

You say you were a Witness for 20 years so I presume that at sometime you were not raised in the religion. That means that you must have 'abandoned' your old religion or principles to become a JW.

What did the Wit's think of THAT? My guess was they thought it was good to give up what was "wrong". But, of course they can't be allowed to recognize what's wrong in their own religlion.) Or is it better said that they won't allow themselves to recognize that what they are being taught is in error--even with all the evidence in their own literature that shows it can't possibly be a prophet of God.

While you didn't say so in those words, what they have done to you

"Losing our employees and business partner were definite blows, as is not seeing my stepson and grandson at times very difficult."


is a perfect way to bring one to ruin. (I'm thinking of a movie where a certain lawyer's life was destroyed by elements of the government very much in the same way. Lost his job, no credit, wife received damaging mail, people were fed damning information about the man, etc. Sorry can't remember the name, but hopefully you'll remember it.) We don't have any problem calling what was done to him as EVIL! Why is it that we have such a problem using those words in your case--and the in the cases of the 50,000-70,000 Wits that suffer the same treatment each year?

Wouldn’t you say this definition fits your situation?
e•vil (n):
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction:
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction

It appears that what was done to you--and so many others--is MEANT TO BE MALICIOUS. “We’re going to make you suffer until you want to come back to us”. (Now there’s an incentive!)
That religious policy isn’t any different from the saying
“The floggings will continue until morale improves”. (LOL!)
I never cease to be amazed at how it is that the Watchtower/Jehovah’s Witnesses can call themselves “Christian”, and yet behave in such Un-Christian ways. (Compare Jesus’ being able to tell the Father he “didn’t lose a single one you gave me” to the Watchtower’s proud record of wholesale disfellowshippings.)
As an elder, did you ever sit on one of their Religious Tribunals where suspected “wrongdoers” were brought in to answer charges brought against them? Can you respond to the common statement from such defendants that the main interest of that body was in “keeping the organization clean” by “getting rid of the ‘leaven’” rather than the restoration of such a person? Is that Watchtower policy? Or is that something each individual judicial body imposes (with remarkable similarity”? If it is WT policy, how much training do elders get on conducting one of these “investigations”? Is there any printed material outlining those policies (and if the is, where can it be obtained)?
I’m sure I’m putting you on the spot with this. Maybe an anonymous response would be in order. Stuart—or any other active JW is around--I’d like to know what you know about this too. MJ

Hi again MJ,

You said:..."Thanks Vinny, for your sensitive response. With just a few word pictures you've taken my breath away. You said you were "labeled an apostate". I have too look "apostate" up to be sure I knew what you were talking about because by their reaction it seemed so...dirty.

a•pos•tate (n): One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause."


*****Your definition does not sound too bad since I have "abandoned" the JW faith now. MY problem with being labeled an apostate by JW's is that you are now compared to Judas and what he did to Jesus; a traitor and one who has turned against God Himself. This, again, is not an exaggeration on my part. I have NOT turned traitor against Christianity, nor God nor the bible. I simply no longer agree with JW interpretation of that bible after logical, carefully researched reasons. Had I known about these many unique policies BEFOREHAND, I would never have become one of Jehovah's Witnesses to begin with. But NOWHERE are new studies told about these very credibility damaging WT issues, both in times past as well as current issues.

The other problem with this JW policy to label those who leave as apostate, is that I did not WANT to have to formally leave at all. But due to the fact that I did not want to have my hands tied, or mouth taped shut (which is exactly what happens if one disagrees with current JW teachings... if you speak to others about it you WILL be expelled OUT), but instead decided to formally leave so that I can have freedom of speech to be true to myself and others that inquire about WHY I left the JW's. You are literally forced to either be quiet, or suffer the shunning; you choose. My wife has chosen the first, to be quiet, as do many others just to avoid the unfair consequences. Family is pretty important to most everybody, as we can all imagine.



MJ:..."You say you were a Witness for 20 years so I presume that at sometime you were not raised in the religion. That means that you must have 'abandoned' your old religion or principles to become a JW. What did the Wit's think of THAT? My guess was they thought it was good to give up what was "wrong". "




******This is on of the most blatant examples of double standards in the JW faith actually. If a bible study belongs to any other church, that person must turn in a formal letter disassociating themselves from their former faith before qualifying for JW baptism. This is mandatory. Now, if the JW does this very same thing, by officially leaving the faith regardless of circumstances, they are treated the same as an unrepentant sinner as was clearly seen from Stuart's copy and paste WT article. Did I thank Stuart for that yet?

Notice this link:

www.watchtower.org/librar...cle_03.htm

This is directly from the "official" Watchtower website. It's a short reading.

Now, imagine somebody trying to apply this very same advice to their own Jehovah's Witness faith. Quite simply; You can't. You would be expelled. I have seen many examples of double standards with the JW organization, but this one may very well be one of the most blatant cases I can remember.

Just a few *highlights* below from the article.


"Education shows you how to think. Propaganda tells you WHAT to think."



"Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion."



"The propagandist makes sure that his message appears to be the right and moral one and that it gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. "




(this next one is a personal fav)...

"Solomon, a king and educator in ancient times, warned: "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." (Proverbs 14:15) So we need to be selective. We need to scrutinize whatever is presented to us, deciding what to accept and what to reject." ... (the thud you heard was when I fell out of my chair)...




"Put information to the test: "Beloved ones," said John, a first-century Christian teacher, "do not believe every inspired expression, but TEST the inspired expressions."




(Another fav.)...
"Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth?


(This one really takes the cake!)
"Do not just follow the crowd: If you realize that what everybody thinks is not necessarily correct, you can find the strength to think differently. (Say what??)



"While it may seem that all others think the same way, does this mean that you should?"




"Over the centuries all kinds of ideas have been popularly accepted, only to be proved wrong later. Yet, the inclination to go along with the crowd persists."


****I did not makes this stuff up. It's from their own website. Amazing how incredibly hypocritical this is. JW's cannot think or act differently. They must accept all JW teachings. Period.





MJ:..."It appears that what was done to you--and so many others--is MEANT TO BE MALICIOUS. “We’re going to make you suffer until you want to come back to us”. (Now there’s an incentive!)


**** It is a great policy to maintain control, and that's what it does. Most people cannot even think of being in a position to lose loved ones. Many children for example were raised in the JW faith. It's all they have ever known. Where else do they go? How do you come to terms with losing all friends and all family including parents at one time? So, many just leave double lives. Pretending aint no life, in my view, Yet I fully understand why some JW's would choose to do that rather than lose everything.




MJ:..."As an elder, did you ever sit on one of their Religious Tribunals where suspected “wrongdoers” were brought in to answer charges brought against them? Can you respond to the common statement from such defendants that the main interest of that body was in “keeping the organization clean” by “getting rid of the ‘leaven’” rather than the restoration of such a person? Is that Watchtower policy? Or is that something each individual judicial body imposes (with remarkable similarity”? If it is WT policy, how much training do elders get on conducting one of these “investigations”? Is there any printed material outlining those policies (and if the is, where can it be obtained)?
I’m sure I’m putting you on the spot with this. Maybe an anonymous response would be in order. Stuart—or any other active JW is around--I’d like to know what you know about this too. MJ"



**** No reason to keep anything anonymous. Putting these things on the table is good for all in the end. Yes, I was on several Judicial Committees (JC"s) while an elder. You are not trained that well to be honest, but usually newer elders are paired with two more experienced men. The elder body usually knows who is capable and who is not enough to avoid putting three incompetent ones together. And yes many or just that, do not have a clue. We always went by the WT Society guidelines when making decisions. It's fairly easy to folllow. When a man is appointed as an elder he gets what's tilted, "Pay attention the Flock of God" book. This is an elders only book that nobody else can view, including wives. In fact any elder that leaves that position must turn it back in to the Society. Thanks to the web here is that book in full:

http://www.dbhome.dk/carlo/

I don't know why it's so secret, nothing really that special in it, in my opinion.

The main purpose of the elders is to teach what the Society tells them to teach as well as to keep the cong clean through private counseling and JC's. They do receive continuous training throughout the years, but ALWAYS with a view to what the Governing Body tells them to do. Always. Plain and simple.

Two of the absolute best publications I have ever read were by a former Governing Body Member, Ray Franz. He was at every level of the WT Organization. His writings are honest and very sincere. He almost apologizes for what he has learned. Here are links to those two books.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0914675044/104-9391991-2543967?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0914675168/104-9391991-2543967?v=glance&n=283155



He is still alive today, living in Georgia. His first book is now available in 11 languages. I have personally spoken with him. An outstanding human being and devout Christian. Nobody has done more to expose the real JW organization than Ray Franz

Let me know if I missed anything MJ.

I hope this helps you see a little more of the real JW picture.

Have a great weekend.

Vince

Question, why don't all of the links work here? You cannot even copy and paste the actual link. Though it looks like a live link. Some are not however.


Here is that WT Society Link again:

http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_03.htm

Stuart says:..."Again Vinny is building a case around a sentence. You have to consider the whole article and not take a sentence out of context to support your agenda."


****Say what?? I posted the link to the ENTIRE ARTICLE twice. I also said "here are some "highlights" from that article", in which I quoted several sentences from the article and not just one. Do you need reading glasses Stuart?

That article is a disgrace because it proves what a hypocritical double standard the JW Leaders from the Watchtower Society have.

If any JW does what that article tells newly interested people to do with their own religion, then that JW would be disfellowshipped OUT.

Really Amazing stuff here, but true!

Ray Franz EXPOSES the WT Society for what it truly is. Basically the very same thing that YOUR posts Stuart have done here; exposing it as some poor example of Christianity. A controlling religious institution that makes great boasts and claims, but whose historical, doctrinal, social and medical past is filled with errors and embarrassmets.

Just like your posts have been Stuart.

Sorry but the truth hurts, don't it?

I fully understand!

Yes I read the article and its great and true. I have no problem with it.

Jehovah's witnesses in the beginning got somethings right and somethings wrong, but over time it has evolved into a clear and distinct understanding of Gods word the bible. Its an organization full of imperfect humans but its the best we have and by means of it the good news about Gods kingdom is being preached. There is no organization (or religion better). If so then name it.

Quote: "Jehovah's witnesses in the beginning got somethings right and somethings wrong, but over time it has evolved into a clear and distinct understanding of Gods word the bible."

Stuart, I laughed out loud when I read this. Just what exactly in the beginning did they get RIGHT? A "clear and distinct understanding of Gods [sic] word the bible [sic]?" And what in the last 40 years have they gotten right? 1975? They in as much confessed they didn't have a clue what a "generation" was when they revised the whole "70 or 80 years" prediction.

I will give you "distinct." Yeah, NO ONE can even come close to their "distinct" understanding of the Bible.

Stuart, do yourself a favor... go take a few college classes and see what it's like to really study. Find out for yourself what a narrow and censored life you have lived. Once you do that, you will find that you have been served nothing but mother's milk for "spiritual food." That's the real reason the Society discourages higher education, they don't want you to find out what little you have in the way of knowledge. Don't ever be afraid to read and learn and to compare ideologies.

And by the way, putting up Vinnie’s personal information was a despicable act. It shows that you haven’t learned any kind of ethical behavior from you goody-two-shoes religion. That was truly disgusting in my opinion. It shows that you have learned well from your vengeful and spiteful god and his or-gan-I-Zay-SHUN.

Yammerhammer.

Stuart said: "Any comment that supports Jehovah's witnesses is deleted, they team up to vote them down and to keep anything negative up, Which [sic] is stupid its [sic] much better to have both sides post their opinion so on lookers [sic] can get a balanced view. But instead all they see are comments from angry apostates ( people left Jehovah's witnesses) commenting on Stuarts post but there is no Stuart so they don't get it anyway. But they keep Vinny's comments up but NO rebuttal is allowed. Since no rebuttal is allowed and this site is just used to make Jehovahs [sic] witnesses look bad lets Identify them. They use this site and sites like this to defame but sometimes it comes back and bites them. "

Well, Stewy, maybe if you wouldn't just cut and paste so much from your Watch-Terror CD, you might get some votes. Try putting all that nonsense into your own words for a change. Hey, here's something you could post that would really impress me:

Tell me in YOUR OWN WORDS, and without running to your CD for information on how to explain this, how exactly do you derive from the Bible that 1914 was the end of the "Gentile Times" and the beginning of Jesus Christ's "invisible reign"? I would bet that fewer than one in 100,000 Jehovah's witnesses could do this, impromptu, using just their Bible. Can you do it Stuart?

This is just one of the most convoluted teachings of Jehovah’s witnesses, and yet it's the mainstay of their whole doctrinal essay on why they believe we are in the last days. This teaching has been revised and re-revised so many times that it reminds me of the "little boy crying wolf" story. It's the “carrot” they “dangle in front of the horse” to keep them faithful and loyal to "the end" which ultimately is the end of their natural lives. The immutable truth is that 1914 came and went without any fulfillment of their "directed by the holy spirit" predictions, as did 1918, 1935, and most notoriously 1975. Seventy or eighty years is the Biblical definition of the length of the "generation that will by no means pass away" (Matt. 24:34). The generation of 1914 which ended in 1984 or 1994 came and went with Jehovah's witnesses continuing to die of old age, disappointed that they never saw the end of this "wicked system of things." Most Jehovah's witnesses believe that they will never die, that Armageddon will come in their lifetime and that they will be the sole survivors of this mother of all holocausts that they call "Jehovah's Day."

Do you believe it too Stuart? Tell us why then, and tell us how you come up with 1914--WITH OUT CUTTING AND PASTING another series of articles from your CD. If you can't do that, then show us from your Bible why 1975 was the end of 6,000 years of man's existence and the "appropriate time for God to act." I bet you can't do that either.

Yammerhammer.

Well Yammerhammer (David Swingle) What I post answer the questions raised
and that is what matters.

Not so much around here, Stewy. And if that's all that matters, why are you whining about how everyone votes you down?

David Swingle (aka Yammerhammer)

PS--Did you think telling everyone my name would cause me any problems? Why don't you grow a pair and see if you can come up with something original? I have a Watch-terror CD of my own, I don't need you to paste the damned thing for me. Isn't that a violation of the Copyright laws? Hmmm... I see a public reproval coming your way.

Unbelieveable!!!! Stew has again posted personal information.
Is this what YOUR RELIGION teaches is to be vengeful, spiteful and hateful? Man it is even worse[YOUR RELIGION] than what I had always believed.
"why are you whining"
this is the thing I have thought to say to Stew the next time I wanted to bother coming on here again. Why don't you stop your whining and maybe get lost?
You have without any doubt showen who you are and what
your religion is so I can't see that it is necessary for you to say anymore and to give out people's personal information. Do you think that makes them look bad?? If you want to see who looks bad I would suggest you go look in a mirror.

@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]:
Unbelieveable!!!! Stew has again posted personal information.
Is this what YOUR RELIGION teaches is to be vengeful, spiteful and hateful? Man it is even worse[YOUR RELIGION] than what I had always believed.
"why are you whining"
this is the thing I have thought to say to Stew the next time I wanted to bother coming on here again. Why don't you stop your whining and maybe get lost?
You have without any doubt showen who you are and what
your religion is so I can't see that it is necessary for you to say anymore and to give out people's personal information. Do you think that makes them look bad?? If you want to see who looks bad I would suggest you go look in a mirror.

Yep, this is how Jehovah's witnesses try to maintain control over their mislead and uneducated members. Public humiliation. Good thing we don't live in the 17th century, they would make the Salem witch trials look like a Girl Scout meeting.

Excellent "witness" you're giving for your God, Stuart. I hope you step up your devious and cowardly posting methods, because it truly shows what sort of religion you are involved with. I think all can see what this religion does to people... they become like you. Don't you have a meeting to go to or something?

Yammerhammer.

Great posts Yammer! I agree with 100 percent of what you stated. Which is also why neither of us are JW's any longer. Better late than never.

Thanks for the support too, Picasso.

It is rather obvious that everybody here agrees that Stuart has crossed the line, over and over again, in even the most basic rules of debate etiquette.


But two things come to mind here:

1- The very obvious reason why Stu-boy has had to resort to such personal payback attempts, by posting personal information on this thread, is because he has thoroughly been TROUNCED on the issues themselves. He cannot offer any replies to our questions or rebuttals to his copy and paste articles. So, instead, he retaliates like a small child having a tantrum after losing the game by what amounts to some kind of name-calling tyrade. Seriously, it's been almost entertaining to watch just how lopsided this debate has been. I have always been open to debating with JW's. If they indeed do have the truth, then simply prove it to me as well as to others looking on. Just REPLY to the very ISSUES that have caused other very sincere people to leave the WT Organization. What's so difficult about that concept? He cannot and has not done that at all. This in and of itself tells a very powerful message to myself, (and from the comments I have read on this and the second similar thread), to those standing on the sidelines watching this thread. If one does not have intelligent, reasonable replies to well-laid out, specific issues presented, then perhaps there ARE no intelligent, reasonable replies to these very issues presented. That is a big problem.

2- The second thought that comes to mind is even though most ALL here would like to see Stu-boy pack up his embarrassingly laughable show and drift off to some other location for another round of debate spanks from somebody else, I can honestly say that by Stuart's staying around here, he is doing more damage to the WT Society than all of the facts we have presented combined. He has single-handedly done more to hurt the credibility of the WT Society than anybody else on this thread, through facts, personal experiences, WT quotes etc etc.

I have taken a little time out of my life to help honest people that have no idea what Jehovah's Witnesses are about, to share with them another side of the faith other than what the JW's themselves like to present. I have not lied nor exaggerated anything. Their past history is simply terrible. They go beyond the holy writings on current policies today that are enforced by a very harsh penalty system of shunning within its membership.

The best advice I can offer to anybody considering joining the JW's is to ask questions and more questions, and then read all that you can find to read about the WT Society organization. At least then, you will be fully informed before joining up.

Knowledge is the JW''s biggest problem today!

And then there's folks like Stuart...

Vinny said: "I can honestly say that by Stuart's staying around here, he is doing more damage to the WT Society than all of the facts we have presented combined. He has single-handedly done more to hurt the credibility of the WT Society than anybody else…"

So true Vinny. Although I must say that your presentation of the facts and the facts coming from a former Elder carry far more weight than the "cut and paste" responses from Stewy. Well done! You and I have debated some things on another board, but IMO, they were respectful, and by no means did either of us come anywhere close to the desperate and childish things Stewy did here. I sincerely hope that you haven't experienced any fallout from the unethical posting of personal information. I have always enjoyed your posts and I especially appreciate all the time you have spent articulating the arguments for blood transfusions. I know many other people copied your information for future use and to share with others why the policy of banning blood transfusions is so untenable and indefensible.

It seems that we are on a higher moral plane than little Stewy, and that's not surprising. When your obedience is motivated by fear of being punished, if not by the Elders, then by a mean and retaliatory god, as is the case with most Jehovah's witnesses, instead of motivated by the principle of doing the right thing BECAUSE it is the right thing to do, then your moral plane of behavior will never get very far off the ground. This is why Stewy posts our personal information, because he thinks and behaves on a lower plane of morality, one that Jehovah's witnesses inevitably find difficult to overcome. He thinks that somehow, he is going to get us "caught" but he doesn't realize that we are no longer motivated by that fear as he is. People like Stuart are stuck in this adolescent state because the fear of getting caught overpowers anyone’s ability towards moral and ethical growth and its consequential evolution into an adult state of morality: choosing the right because it IS right. They cannot identify, nor will they ever understand what it is like to occupy a higher moral standard than the stuck-in-the mud mentality they currently possess.

That is also why neither one of us could ever go back to such an organization of fear, humiliation and stagnation of thought.

Kudos to you, Vinny, I hope all is well.

Yammerhammer

1Tim:O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” 21 For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.

2Pet:2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.

Take care

2Pet:2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. [Stewy? It seems that YOU are among US. I don't go to your Kindom Hall anymore, so you can't really say that *I* am *among* you.] These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. [Yeah, I know, I know. Wasn't that supposed to be on or just after 1975? Wasn't that supposed to be within the "generation that was old enough to recognize" what was happening in the year 1914 when the "Last days" began? Oh, wait, no, that got changed to the people who were born during or after 1914 and would only have a maximum of 70 or "if by special might" 80 years. OOOOOOooooooops, no, no. We can't really say exactly what a generation is or how long one runs. All we know is that it's the people who are generally alive when these things are going on. Yeah... that's the ticket.] 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. [Yeppers, that pretty much fits you doesn't it Stewy? On account of your lack of ethics and your low moral standards when it comes to posting private information, you pretty well take the cake. Congratulations.]

You know what Stewy? I love you in a principled sort of way. I will be here when you figure out exactly what you're involved with as do MOST active witnesses given enough time. Cults will come and cults will die. But I will be here and I will do my utmost to help you when your world comes crashing down on you. You can always e-mail me, hell, you have my real name. Hopefully, I will still be alive, I'm not as young as I used to be and if I'm lucky, I will live another 30 years before I die my natural death and go back to the dust I came from. You will do that eventually too, my friend. No one, no living thing has ever gotten off this planet alive. Everything living is dying or will die. That's an immutable, truthful fact. Big A isn't coming and you haven't found the truth. No one has, or at least no one can PROVE they have.

You are in for the most devasting shock and awe of your life, that is if you can put your CD down for awhile. It is for most people when they realize they have given their lives over to an oligarchy of old men that literally have little or no real life experience and could never relate to us out here in the trenches.

Now you just go and have yourself a really special day. And a special kind of life as well. I will be waiting for you, dude... with open arms.

Yammerhammer.

Stuart, please provide us with one scripture that shows that God's truth "evolves over time". My bible is full of "Thus sayeth the Lord's" and "if you do this, thens" but I can't recall any single instance where His word "evolves". It sure would help support your position if you could find one. (If you can't, then maybe you should give that particular arguement up.)

"Its an organization full of imperfect humans". How about "It's an imperfect human organization"?

"...but its the best we have". Stuart, the parents who tied up and beat their 12 daughter to death with an electric cord were "the best parents she had". They were wrong. They were evil. But they were the best she had. If the 'best' you can say about the WTBTS is they--false prophets claiming to hear from the God of truth, but publishing untruths--is they're "the best we have" you need to get away (like Moses told the people standing around Korah's tent before the ground opened up as swallowed them alive.)

"...by means of it the good news about Gods kingdom is being preached." Look at this. If you really believed you had an urgent message--like a flash flood, an encroaching fire, or Armageddon, would you (A) to make a radio announcements for everyone to hear, or (B) to write articles for publication in a bi-weekly magazine? You'd make a radio announcement, of course. Why would the Watchtower, teaching Armageddon is coming so soon, use the slowest of all means to get news out? Did you know they once owned over 400 radio stations? It's a matter of record. They actually had the means of warning everyone--even those who can not read--of impending destruction at Armageddon, yet they SOLD EVERY ONE and expanded the printing operations. Why? Could it be the fact that radio stations cost money to operate while literature--even that sold on a "contribution" basis, generates tremendous income. WTBTS New York alone generates a BILLION dollars a year. This suggests that the real motive is not getting the message out to the whole world before the end comes because that would be both faster and easier using the electronic media rather than the less efficient but more income-generating print media. Think on that!

"There is no organization (or religion better)." Stuart, you've heard the scripture quoted "where shall we go away to, you have words of life"? That's a deliberate misquote. It is actually "WHO shall we go away to, you [JESUS] have words of life".

"If so then name it." Why don't you ask God that very important question? See where HE wants you to go. He's not mute. He hasn't retired and left the Watchtower in charge of the business. He does still answer prayers. Ask, and see for yourself. MJ

Excellent posts from both Yammer and MJ. What I appreciate about each of your participations here, and what is a direct contrast to what Stuart brings, is that you both sound very reasonable. We have ALL asked Stuart to reply to particular issues, specific scriptures posted as well as direct questions asked of him. None of us claims to know it all. None of us claims that our faith is the ONLY way. There is an open-mindedness that I see with you two as well as a with others here that simply does not exist with Stuart.

But here is the clincher; This is exactly how the Watchtower Society ITSELF operates. No kidding. They truly believe, and teach, they alone are the only true religion on earth. They come across as knowing everything. Have a question? Well, what does the Watchtower say about it? Almost every subject is covered in detail. One CANNOT EVEN DISAGREE with any current understanding today. All other faiths are of Babylon the Great, doomed for annihilation. Etc etc...

This is exactly how Stuart has come across in my opinion and in the opinion of most here. Just cut and paste, pretend as knowing it all, like some kind of robot almost. Where is the sensitivity Stuart? I've asked that same thing of the WT Society as well.

True Christianity is not this way. The fact that the WT has so many of these, "we know it all" things wrong just makes it impossible to be as they claim; "God's Sole Channel" Today.

You have not and cannot deal with that embarrassing list of doctrinal, medical and historical failures by the WT Society for over 100 years now Stuart. If they were right on just most issues, not even all, but MOST of them, then maybe there is some credibility here. But they have been dead wrong again and again and again; all the while claiming to be God's True Religion, and all the while demanding complete subjection and obedience from all of its members despite its poor history.

The evidence has been weighed more carefully in my own case than one can possibly know. I was an elder. I did have a true zeal and loyalty. I had plans on getting into the Circuit work as well. My kids were all raised in this faith. I had no reason to leave this religion at all. But the quest for truth does not offer any guarantees. If I am going to ask other people to examine their current faith, I'd better be willing to examine my own. I thought I had done this in the very beginning. 15 years after my baptism, I simply learned things about the Organization that I had never known before, which damaged its credibility significantly. My own story was posted here:

http://p196.ezboard.com/Letter-of-disassociation/fexjehovahswitnessforumfrm14.showMessage?topicID=237.topic


I THEN undertook an exhaustive, comprehensive examination. The results of which were both depressing as well as liberating. But what can you do? Just stick around in a faith that you no longer believe in? Just be quiet and go along with the status quo? I have never been this way throughout my entire life. I have never been considered as a rebel, but have always had what I'd consider as the strength or courage to stand up for what I believe in... regardless of the consequences involved. And this is what happend to me one year ago. I walked away from the JW organization.

The facts to me are virtually irrefutable. Leaving this religion was the correct thing to do. Certainly Stuart did not overturn any thing here and now.

I appreciate your kind words Yammer. Yes, we have debated other issues on another site in the past, but you have showed me a great measure of respect throughout. What more can we ask of ourselves, as men, than that? I realize your current situation, at home, is still somewhat tumultuous. I only hope things will improve for you.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time. Hopefully we can close this thing and move on to better things in our lives.

I wish you all peace and much success. That includes you too Stuart.

A hui hou from the islands,

Vince

Rev:14:. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Notice: and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand.

Mastering a song takes time, no one masters an instrument overnight.
The song or riddle is Gods word.

Dan:12:8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?”

9 And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.

Notice: The riddle or secret about the truth would be sealed up until the time of the end. It would be restored. Something had to be lost in order to be restored. Also notice: Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. So we have a transformation here over time. Jehovah's witnesses went through a refining period or a cleansing period (or evolved) and slowly over a 100 years or so restored true worship in the earth.

Notice: and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand.

Stu, your quotation of the NWT's version of Revelation 14:3's use of the word "Master", and your personal commentary that "a song takes time, no one masters an instrument overnight." and that "The song or riddle is Gods word." assumes a great deal.

Of the 25 times the Greek word "man-THAN-o" appears in the bible it is translated into English (NAS) as: "educated" 1 time; "find" once, "learn" 12 times," learned" 9, "learning" once, "receive instruction" once. and "educzted" once (in the KJV).

Of course that's not the Jehovah Witness' NWT version, but considering that in THE WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY'S [LATEST] VERSION OF THE BIBLE THEY AUDACIOUSLY ADMIT TO ADDING TO GOD'S WORD THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THE OLDEST ORIGINAL- LANGUAGE WRITINGS, I am disinclined to use it to support the use of "mastering" in this case--even though anyone can see how very convenient that would be for a religious group so well known for not "getting" God's word right the first time.

Stuart, just imagine the Almighty sending Moses to Pharaoh for a little on-the-job training as he "mastered" the messages of I AM! Now think of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel--ANY of those we KNOW to have been God's prophets. Show me which one(s) of them had to "correct" the statements God gave them because they hadn't heard it right in the first place? Nada. Zip. Zero! There are NONE!

If you can honestly say you are not worried by that difference between the record of the known prophets of the Living God, and the WTBTS record claiming to be God's "channel of communication" then what more can be said except you most certainly have chosen to follow MEN rather than GOD. MJ

All of the apostles by the way had alot to learn, they did not know all right from the begining nor did they when they died. They where also imperfect humans just like Moses and Dan. Moses had to herd sheep for a number of years before he was used by God.
None of these men where perfect though your claim is that they where all perfect like Jesus! That is not true! Moses made a huge mistake and he was not permited into the promise land because of it! But he was still used by Jehovah.

Stuart said:..."Moses made a huge mistake and he was not permited into the promise land because of it! But he was still used by Jehovah."



**** I just love it when JW's try to use Moses personal mistakes as well as the Apostles personal mistakes to try to justify the mistakes of the Watchtower Society Leadership that is in print. I have said this before, but what you have just described above, with Moses (as well as the apostles) making mistakes, sinning and the like, IS what goes on day today with all people, from all time periods, along with JW's, included the Governing Body itself. The WT leadership says and does and thinks unchristian, sinful things too Stuart... probably more often than you think. On the other hand, what was WRITTEN DOWN by these same bible writers, which was claimed to be inspired of God (2Tim 3:16 and 2Peter 1:20,21), is still considered infallible over 2000 years later! These "time-tested" writings give evidence that God was indeed behind them. Do you see the difference Stuart? Human beings *INDIVIDUALLY* are allowed to and DO make mistakes on a daily basis, including Moses and Jesus own hand-picked apostles. The very WRITINGS (which is claimed to be from God) of these same men however are without mistakes anywhere. On the other hand, the very writings of the Watchtower Society (which also claims to be "food from God", his "mouthpiece" today, "God's Channel" etc), are FILLED with mistake after mistake and embarrassment after embarrassment. Yet YOU, along with many other JW's want to conveniently just chalk it up to human imperfection. That does not cut it Stu. They get no free pass here. The fact is one must accept all teachings handed down by the Governing Body or be PUT OUT right now, despite such a poor track record. The very same Governing Body that is responsible for that very long, humiliating list of mistakes starting at post number 94. Yet it still demands complete obedience to all current teachings today. Amazing, aint it Stuart?





As a typical JW, you try to minimize the mistakes made by the Watchtower Society. But Stuart you just can't get away with that. Maybe with some innocent, ignorant, wet-behind-the-ears bible study you might, but not here you can't. Too many of us here on this thread know better. The sheer number of erroneous teachings is mind boggling. Not just minor mistakes either. But life shattering kinds of mistakes. How many people DIED solely due to those bad medical policies which eventually had to be dropped altogether? That's how bad they were, most had to be dropped, discarded, dumped because they were just THAT bad. How many people listened to all of the false end of the world specific dates, in writing, predictions. Predictions which proved what Stuart? Every single one proved false. No hyperbole, all of them. Lives were ruined following the WT leadership with those. People gave up families, plans to have children, enjoyable careers, sold houses... all for what Stuart? For a message that proved a lie over and over again. What does this say about the WT Society Organization?


What does that say about ANY an organization to you? And wouldn't it be reasonable for thinking persons to expect more from a religion that makes the claims of God's Only True Channel Today? Is it a lack of faith on the part of intelligent people that reject the Watchtower Society based on so many bad policies and mistakes? Or would it be irresponsible to just look the other way? We are talking about an enormously checkered history, along with a host of CURRENT unscriptural policies. And then you have the many policies which shelter the JW's from the real facts. Keeping the rank and file in the dark is one neat trick Stuart. It does work; it worked on me and many millions today. But is it RIGHT? Is it Christian? Truth can stand up to any challenge. It can hold up to vigorous cross-examination. Yet the average JW knows none of this past, and just goes along with whatever they are told. Usually because they have bought into the, "one true faith"claims and will not even consider outside critical information. It is simply amazing how many people, once they learn the real facts about the WT Society, LEAVE. Do people leave Stuart because they have now been blinded? Or do they leave because they WERE blinded and NOW have all of the information? Well, the facts prove the latter is true. In fact, there is no doubt that this is the way it actually is. It is after people, such as myself and many other Ex JW's, learn about this 'other' information that makes the WT organization look much worse than what they say about themselves. Facts that neither you, nor anybody else on this board have been able to deal with.


Facts that must be addressed and explained for the Watchtower Society to gain any credibility whatsoever. You have failed in doing this again and again.

In fact, you've only made it worse by being here Stuart. Just read the above comments.

Sorry Stuart, but that's just the way it is.

Has anyone bothered to check out this "scholar's" laughable references to the bible? There is no way this guy is a scholar or otherwise an expert on the use of blood in the Hebrew scriptures. As for the criticisms of "abstaining" from blood, how much more needs to be said? When, for example, you read: "Thou shalt not murder." Is anyone unclear on the meaning of that?

My last post are all posted on other sites where they cant delete them. There people can see both sides and see for themselves how these apostates are just spewing out garbage! So enjoy deleteing my post but you cannot delete the truth!

Aren't the babies considered "agnostic aethists" as no doubtedly, they have yet to be introduced to the "concept of god"

Babies have the right to live, and we have the obligation to protect them from stupid parents.

Law should always overide religion, which is an outdated, unproven and unjustified means of social control.

Poor Stuey. He got clobbered with the facts above. The WT Society has been dead wrong so many times now that there is no way on earth these people have a monopoly on Truth as he likes believe through his copy and paste laughable attempts.


TODAY, JW's shun ANY that simply chose to walk away from their religion.

Thay force all members to refrain from life saving blood transfusions even if death is imminent. Though they do allow them to accept certain fractions of blood (WHICH COME FROM BLOOD), though yet again the JW's still cannot donate or store their own blood] A complete mess.

They are an extremely high-control religious institution, that claims that it alone has God's approval. These self titles and great boasts are proved hollow by the facts.

The facts that poor Stuart was run over by like a FREIGHT TRAIN.